Maps, Directions, and Place Reviews
Why so much on vertebrates?
Almost all of the article deals with vertebrates, despite the large majority of animal experiments being experiments on invertebrates. Why is that? Tim Vickers 02:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Reference problem
The sentence:
Is referenced to a document that does not appear to discuss this topic, what page of this document did the citation refer to? Tim Vickers 03:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Numbers
I think we have too many figures in the article, which makes it almost unreadable and also hard to use as a resource. It doesn't really matter that 1.59 million of X were used in 2003, 1.53 million in 2004, and 1.56 million in 2005. I'll be going through removing some of these over the next few days hopefully. I'll try to pick one figure for each thing that looks representative, and leave it at that. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 06:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Arguments in brief
Any ideas about what to do with this section? [1] As written, it's a bit of an embarrassment e.g. "Humans that use medicine derived from animal research are healthier." Healthier than what? Than humans who don't use prescribed drugs even when they need to? Than humans who don't use drugs because they don't need to? Than humans who rely on alternative treatments? Than humans who use prescribed drugs that aren't tested on animals (but all are)? It's senseless.
A lot of the rest of it suffers from the same problem. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 19:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Animal's Used
Tim Vickers wrote: "removed text based on unreliable self-published website." And, he did this in about two seconds after the reference was added; which makes it pretty clear that he took about zero seconds to consider the documents included there. In point of fact, the organization's claims regarding USDA misreporting have been covered by major media outlets. http://www.all-creatures.org/saen/media-20070608.html
I'm not too sure what "self-published websites" means in this case. Vickers, are you claiming to be an expert on this organization? It seems to be a secondary source that the media covers with some regularity. I'm putting the reference back, before removing it again, please discuss doing so here first and seek some consensus. Rbogle 19:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I found it for you, not so hard. (link). Now all you need to show is that the opinions of this single minor group are notable and should be given equal weight to the USDA. Tim Vickers 21:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Use the news organisation website, rather than a private website with an obvious and strong bias hosting what might be an accurate copy of a news story, but might not. Do you really see "all-creatures.org" and "http://www.upi.com/" as equally-reliable sources? Tim Vickers 21:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Since we have sorted out the sourcing problem, no we just need to decide if the opinions of this single minor group are notable enough to be included, or if that would be giving them undue weight. Compared to the USDA, how notable do you think this group is? Tim Vickers 21:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
If you think this group is indeed notable enough for this article (700 Google hits on its name, 64 Google News hits if you go back to 1997) why is it not even listed in any of the other articles on more specific subjects? It isn't in animal rights, animal liberation movement, list of animal welfare groups or even list of animal rights groups. Not exactly high-profile. Perhaps it would be better to use the comments of one of the major animal rights groups on this report, rather than giving undue weight to a minor fringe group. Tim Vickers 22:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
What constitutes a "fringe group"? I don't think that "notability" is a reasonable criteria for determinging the appropriateness of a reference. If it is, then we need to go back and look carefully at any reference to any published research and find some way of deciding whether the author is notable.Rbogle 12:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Opponents of animal testing
Let's clarify the meaning of this and its siter section. Is a reference need to support an observation that a particualr argument has been made, or support for that particular argument.
If each of the statements in this section require a reference, then why don't the ones in the pro- section? Throwing in the "reference needed" thingys all of a sudden on a page this actively edited seems more like trouble-making than helpful editing. to me.Rbogle 23:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Berto is the cause of all this he sucks ass --Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.200.10.130 (talk) 20:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
"Bunching"
This seems very far-fetched. Animal testing uses animals bred for the purpose, with a single genetic background and often in disease-free conditions. Domestic animals are completely unsuited for experiments. If this section isn't backed by some good references over the next few days I will remove it. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:07, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
POV
The topic is controversial. Opponents argue that animal testing is cruel and unnecessary, poor scientific practice, never reliably predictive of human metabolic and physiological specificities, poorly regulated, that the costs outweigh the alleged benefits, or that animals have an intrinsic right not to be used for experimentation.
This is unacceptably POV. Especially as it is in the header, it should cover both sides if it is discussing controversy.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 19:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
very very biased.
I intend to delete the Ingrid Newkirk quote regarding animal testing. It's unnecessary at best and not worthy of prominent display in an encyclopedia at worst. I'm "securing consensus" before I do this. Budjoint (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Sources/POV
Intro to section on regulation
We need to introduce the section, so that this is not just a list of factoids. Is your objection on the sourcing, the positioning or the content? Tim Vickers (talk) 21:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
This is not an article showcasing the animal-testing industry
The POVing of this page really does have to stop. Tim's latest addition is something you might find on the website of the Research Defence Society:
Animal testing is regulated by law. Generally, regulations set standards on who can perform experiments, and how these experiments are carried out. Although the details of regulations differ between countries, most laws follow the same principles. These internationally-accepted guidelines are called the 3Rs and aim to encourage - replacement of animal experiments where possible, refinement of experiments to minimize suffering, pain or distress, and reductions in the numbers of animals used in experiments.
Tim, you need to make in-text attributions, and please don't write as though what you're saying is widely accepted, when in fact it is widely disputed. Posting pro-POV, then adding anti-POV, has made this article completely unreadable. What is needed is a group of editors who are each willing to write entirely neutrally, as though they're Martians who've landed, with access to a huge library about animal testing, but with no vested interests one way or the other, and who will write in skeptical, disinterested tones.
Who here is willing to try to do that? SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 21:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Animal testing is regulated by law. Generally, regulations set standards on who can perform experiments, and how these experiments are carried out. Although the details of regulations differ between countries, most national regulations follow the same general principles, which are called the 3Rs. These guidelines aim to encourage - replacement of animal experiments where possible, refinement of experiments to minimize suffering, pain or distress, and reductions in the numbers of animals used in experiments.
OK, the first two sentences are unarguable and general. I have added specific citations to support the second two sentences. You can't have a section on the regulation of animal experimentation without explaining the 3Rs, that would be a major omission, and since these are the general principles that introduce the detailed regulations we list later, they should go first. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Animal testing is regulated by law. Generally, regulations set standards on who can perform experiments, and how these experiments are carried out. Although the details of regulations differ between countries, most national regulations require the application of the same general principles, which are called the 3Rs. The 3Rs aim to encourage - replacement of animal experiments where possible, refinement of experiments to minimize suffering, pain or distress, and reductions in the numbers of animals used in experiments.
You are right that it could be condensed a little without losing much content - but explaining the 3Rs is vital to understanding what the regulations are trying to achieve. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Comments? Tim Vickers (talk) 00:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Rewritten and better sources added. Any objections to this new version being added back to the article? Tim Vickers (talk) 18:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Removal of paragraph portion on US regulation
Slimvirgin deleted the following text. "The Health Research Extension Act 1985, which is enforced by the Office of Laboratory Animal Welfare (OLAW), requires each scientist or institution that receives federal funds for vertebrate research to have an IACUC. The IACUC is required to ensure research adheres to the standards of the book, the Guide for the Care and Use of Laboratory Animals. Legally, every vertebrate animal used at an institution that receives federal funds, has its animal welfare regulated to standards that meet or exceed those in the Animal Welfare Act."
I added these sentences because the current text misleads the reader into thinking that purpose-bred birds, rats, and mice, and non-mammal vertebrates, are not covered by law in the USA. However, at any institution receiving federal funds (which is nearly all of them), these species are covered, and are covered to the same set of rules and regulations that govern other mammals specifically mentioned in the Animal Welfare Act. FWIW it would be fine (by me) to have a sentence claiming that animal rights groups have challenged the competence of IACUCs, since that is additionally covered in the sub-page. --Animalresearcher (talk) 22:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Writing
What has happened with this page is that, in truth, no one editing it is an expert in either direction. So what we have all done is cherry-pick our sources, and then slap them onto the page without paying any attention to overall POV, readability, whether there is a narrative that a reader could follow. As a result, we have a very poor and uninformative Wikipedia article.
I just removed a section that was typical. Someone has found some quotes that suited his POV, so in they went, one after another, in a way that made no sense, and which was clearly POV. It would be like me adding quotes from different animal protection groups, saying "Animal testing is very bad," followed by "No, it's very, VERY bad," followed by "We don't like it either!!"
It's in no-one interests to edit like this. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 22:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
History section is one sided
The current History section does not mention any historical objections to animal testing, whereas the linked main article does. So clearly there is a problem. Crum375 (talk) 23:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Question
Tim, why did you remove that animals other than mice are used from the genetic modification section? You removed: "Smaller numbers of other animals are also used, including rats, sheep, and pigs." [3] Is it wrong? SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 02:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed it since it seemed redundant, if you say mice are the main organism, then it must logically follow that smaller numbers of other organisms are used. The list didn't seen to add much and was backed by a citation to a BBC news article on glow-in-the-dark pigs. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Toxicology section
I've created a toxicology section, as I just noticed the one we had got removed at some point. I've used a single Nature article as the main source for now, and they had nothing good to say about it. If anyone can find a source that is less negative, that would be good, though both sides should preferably be woven together, rather than having pro and anti jockeying for position. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 02:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Xeno
How about we trash the xenotransplantation section? I really don't see why we should highlight a single field like this. Its poorly sourced and, is of relatively minor significance in terms of numbers. If we are going to focus on a type of experiment, why not transgenesis? At the very least it should be merged into the applied research section. Rockpocket 03:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Regulations
I've moved the regulations sections to Animal testing regulations, so the sections can be expanded if necessary. I restored some of the controversy section, because someone had removed almost all of it, and I created two new sub-sections under "Controversy" -- "Alleged abuse" and "Threats to researchers." We should probably only include the most notable incidents, or we'll quickly have a length problem. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 03:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Editing
Tim, would you mind adding your own material instead of editing mine? Then once it's all there we can rewrite for flow. The current chopping things around is leading to poor flow and, I think, some OR too. Also, the normal thing with reporters is simply to name the publication, unless the reporter is well-known, or it's a controversial opinion piece. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 05:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I'd like to collaborate on it with you. But first I'd like to make sure we're on the same page when it comes to sources, and deciding who our audience is. My apologies for the length of this. Long talk-page comments are very annoying, but I just feel I have to spell this out.
You wrote above something about my using "popular" sources, even though the sources I used were quite varied (from Nature to USDA, to newspapers, to the HSUS). So what I assume you mean is that I'm using secondary sources, and not primary ones. (But if you meant something else, please say.)
We have to rely on secondary sources in an article like this because it's so contentious. There is absolutely nothing about animal testing that is not seriously disputed by reliable sources. In fact, this is probably one of the most contentious articles on Wikipedia. The only reason there's not more fighting on it is you have to do quite a bit of detailed reading to keep up, and most people don't want to do that.
I could very easily go to a university library now and come back with enough primary-source material to fill this page with horror upon horror. Obviously, that would be OR and unacceptable.
Therefore, I think it makes sense to discuss what kinds of sources we're aiming to focus on. Almost all sources will be regarded as propagandists by the other "side." And it's worth noting that there are more than two sides here -- there's (1) pro-testing (and different degrees of support for it); (2) anti-testing based on the argument that it's unscientific, but with little concern for the animals; (3) anti-testing because of animal welfare, which means it's okay to use them but you have to treat them better; and (4) anti-testing because it's regarded as inherently and always immoral. And a thousand variations on those themes.
Given that all sides may be seen as propagandists by someone, the way I approach this is I'm willing to use any reliable source who has something informative to say; and I try not to use any source, no matter how authoritative, if all they're going to do is waffle.
Wondering who the informative sources are leads into asking who our audience is. Who do we want to inform? Answering that will determine what kind of information we offer them.
This page is going to be read largely by people who know little or nothing about animal testing. They may be reading for private interest, or may be writing an essay on it -- for college, school homework or whatever. This page is unlikely to be used by anyone engaged in serious research, and if it is, it will be only for the purpose of finding other sources.
None of these groups wants to see very detailed information here. No one cares if the UK used 1,346,908 mice in 2003, but slightly increased that in 2004. The generalist doesn't want that level of detail. The specialist won't trust our figures and will look them up for himself. So by writing in that very detailed way, we make the page hard to read, and we alienate ourselves from our natural readership.
They want to know what animal testing consists of, who does it, why they do it, where they do it, and what they do it with. We have to try to find the most interesting ways of expressing this -- not necessarily the stuff industry sources produce for the general public, which would put you to sleep in a minute because it often boils down to "$X million spent last year fighting breast cancer to save your Auntie Jane!" This is the stuff I very much want to avoid.
I would like us to collaborate on finding way to make the issues come alive for the reader, by identifying the key points to cover, and then using the most informative and least defensive sources on all sides to shed light on those points. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 01:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Fact-value
Name of researcher
In the Threats to researchers section, is there a reason we don't name the researcher? His name was in all the press articles about this, as I recall. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 16:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Consensus on subpages
Can we establish, as a consensus, that material covered in detail on the various subpages of Animal Testing only be briefly summarized on the Animal Testing page, following style guidelines of WP:LEAD? ie: If there is a subpage on the History of Animal Testing, then detailed edits would occur on the History of Animal Testing page, and the referral section on the Animal Testing page would act as a summary of the History page, roughly devoting coverage to the detailed coverage on the History page? --Animalresearcher (talk) 15:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Vivisection edit
I really don't see the point in continuing to try to insert vivisection as an appropriately neutral term to refer to physiological experiments on animals. It is almost never used by those who practice animal experiments, and almost always used by those who oppose experiments. This careful choice of terms occurs because definitionally vivisection means cutting on live animals, and does not imply purpose in that cutting. Animal experimentation, testing, in vivo experimentation, etc, all imply purpose. In any case, I don't see the point in re-defining the common use of the term here - it is a PR stunt. However, I will happily recant if you can find some evidence of the use of the term by physiologists to describe their own work. I have never heard it used in such a context (by a physiologist to describe his own work) except in an extremely facetious tone on our way to the OR. --Animalresearcher (talk) 15:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Writing
Crum, it was me who removed "On the other side of the debate, those in favor of animal testing held that experiments on living animals were necessary to advance medical and biological knowledge," because it's an example of a sentence that doesn't say anything. It would be like adding "Those who opposed animal testing did so because they thought it was bad and unnecessary."
We need informed opinion attributed to authoritative sources, as was done with Bernard arguing that an effect on an animal can be presumed to lead to a similar effect on a human being. That's a substantive point, attributed to a key player. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 15:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Definition
Tim, the term vivisection is more often used by animal protection groups, not just animal rights. Did you have a reason for changing it? Here for example the Guardian refers to the RSPCA as an anti-vivisection group, and the RSPCA is definitely not animal rights. [4] SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 17:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Bernard
Why don't we want to say that Bernard's wife founded the first French anti-vivisection society? It's been removed twice, but it's a fascinating detail, and shows what a polarizing issue this is. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 18:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Primary/secondary sources
Someone here was asking elsewhere for definitions of primary and secondary, so I'm posting this from an early version of WP:ATT, which I think is clearer than the defs on the current NOR page:
Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation you are writing about. An eyewitness account of a traffic accident is a primary source. The Bible is a primary source. The White House's summary of a George Bush speech is a primary source. Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used for the purposes of attribution in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it's easy to misuse primary sources; for example, anyone could try to use the Bible as evidence that God said homosexuality was a sin. For that reason, edits that rely on primary sources should not interpret the source material, but should simply describe it. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source.
Secondary sources are documents or people that summarize other material, usually primary source material. A journalist's account of a traffic accident is a secondary source. A theologian's account of what the Bible says is a secondary source. A New York Times account of a George Bush speech is a secondary source. Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources wherever possible. This means that we publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read the primary source material for themselves. As a rule, we want to know what Professor Smith, the theologian, says about the Bible and homosexuality, and not what User:Smith says about it, even though both are relying on the same source material.
Wikipedia articles should rely on secondary sources, though of course primary sources can be included -- they just have to be used very carefully. The more controversial the subject, the more care is required with their use. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 18:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Example of the kind of material we need
Animalresearcher, you added elsewhere an example of the kind of material we need here. Talking about the development of the polio vaccine with Rhesus monkeys, you wrote:
Albert Sabin made a superior "live" vaccine by passing the polio virus through animal hosts, including monkeys. The vaccine was produced for mass consumption in 1963 and is still in use today.It had virtually eradicated polio in the USA by 1965.[27] It has been estimated that 100,000 Rhesus monkeys were killed in the course of developing the polio vaccines, and 65 doses of vaccine were produced for each monkey.
The sentence about how 100,000 monkeys were killed producing vaccine for 65 x 100,000 is exactly the kind of material we need in this article. If we could isolate a couple of very stark cases like this, where the benefits of the research were clear and direct, and then also find good sources discussing the cost, we could make a really neutral presentation that I think readers would find very educative. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 18:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Human self-experimentation
I agree with the inclusion of this material. However, if we are including voluntary experiments on humans in this article we need to modify the sentence in the lead that states "Opponents argue that animal testing is cruel and unnecessary,..." into "Opponents argue that some forms of animal testing are cruel and unnecessary,". I would be very skeptical of any claim that people regard human experiments with the full consent of the participants as cruel.
Comments? Tim Vickers (talk) 22:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
While it is true that the phrase "animal testing" is a misnomer because it excludes humans; I feel that a section contrasting aspects of human testing and nonhuman animal testing would illuminate those aspects and the choices available to society in seeking experimental data. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I think such a contrast gets the the ironic heart of the issue in that animals are treated like mere animals because they are not special like us humans and are tested in the first place because we humans are non-special animals so very like them that the experiments tell us also about humans. There is a schizophrenic disconnect in the arguments of hardliners on both sides. Which experiments are done on humans and which are done on non-humans and why illuminates. Moral guidelines used for humans versus non-humans brings into sharp relief options and possibilities. Naturally, to avoid original research, we want sources that themselves do this contrasting. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:28, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Use of precision in the first sentence to clearly identify the subject of the article
Current: Animal testing or animal research refers to the use of animals in experiments.
Proposed: Animal testing or animal research refers to scientific medical or biological experimentation on living animals.
Reason:
- We are addressing science related behaviors and not other possible uses of animals in experiments.
- We are addressing medical or biological related behaviors and not other possible uses of animals in experiments. (There is significant but not total overlap in these terms.)
- "the bodies of living animals" rather than just "animal" to rule out experiments on dead animals and on living tissue seperated from the body (e.g. blood).
Things ruled out:
- Children experimenting with insects. (unscientific)
- Parrots experimented on to judge their IQ. (psychological, not medical/biological)
- Experiments with blood or other tissue removed from an animal.
- Experiments on dead bodies. (If we want to cover that we should explicitly say so.)
WAS 4.250 (talk) 01:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Sources
Tim, why are you removing sources, and trying to minimize this practice? Most dogs in the United States are supplied by Class B dealers, so this isn't a minor issue. Read the Newsweek piece. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 02:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
"Vast majority are purpose bred"
I have placed that statement in the lead inside an edit comment, because I see several problems with it. First, it hasn't been established in the article's body. Second, in the UK, I see a 60-40 split for bred vs. supplied, which isn't "vast". Also, I think there is a problem with numbers in general. If 99.99% of fruit flies are purpose bred, it could overwhelm the other species. So I think sourcing needs more discussion prior to a simplified summary in the lead. Crum375 (talk) 03:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Arguments
I've moved the arguments to Talk:Animal testing/arguments, because the section was very disjointed. I'm going to start working on an ethics section, which I'll do on an article or user talk subpage until there's a first draft. My thinking is that we should have a separate article on that issue, and include a summary-style section here. Hope that works for everyone. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 19:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Suffering
Regarding this:
Could someone check that reference, please? As written it doesn't really make sense. Suffering isn't an awareness of an internal state (an internal state about an internal state), but is simply the subjective experience itself. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 21:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Good point, perhaps it would be better to note that the word suffering as several meanings and that one definition is awareness of pain or fear. Other sources defining this would be good, the Stanford Dictionary of philosophy linked from the suffering page might be useful. I think it is important to at least give a basic definition here, since the question about if animals suffer, and if so which ones, is one of the central questions in the section on ethics SV is writing. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:27, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
What is your concern, Crum375, do you disagree that this topic has been discussed, or do you disagree with the quality of the sources that were used to show that it has been discussed? Tim Vickers (talk) 00:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Concern
I have a concern about the way sources are being used. This edit about pain:
The abstract says nothing about it being a "side-effect," which would be a bizarre claim. It calls it a "consequence." While the abstract does say it's unnecessary in most cases, this is part of an argument that there is evidence that pain is not being alleviated sufficiently. But that part was not included in the edit.
It's extremely important (especially with a controversial subject) that sources be used accurately, and that we don't change what they say, or lift what they say out of context.
The abstract says:
SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 21:52, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
http://oslovet.veths.no/compendia/LAS/KAP10.pdf is relevant. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Bad shape
This article is in really bad shape.
- The overwhelming tone of this article is anti-animal testing.
- The article has an overwhelming number of pictures sourced from animal rights sites like PETA, or medical pictures chosen for shock value.
- Captions of the pictures advertise the animal rights groups, oftentimes before a description of what the photograph depicts. When the animal rights group simply provides the picture they should not be credited on the caption but on the image page.
- Pictures that didn't provide shock value, but illustrated typical lab conditions have been removed. (by looking at the history 500 edits ago)
- The writing is disjointed. Very few paragraphs can be read as singular items. They read like individual sentences slammed together. Each sentence is a paraphrase of a reference with no relation to the sentences around it. Is it possible this article is oversourced?
- The writing has become so parsed that there are now non-sentences floating freely, such as "Allows scientists to determine the effect of the drug and the dose-response curve."
- Odd placement of see also tags scattered all over the article. For instance: What does "international trade in primates" have to do with xenotransplantation?
- The Further Reading section is a list of animal rights books. It is too long and un-necessary for an article so heavily referenced.
- The External Links section is again, a collection of animal rights links. Some of these links are just newspaper articles. Why are they there at all? Use them as a reference or get rid of them.
- The Organizations section is once again, a collection of animal rights links. There are a smaller number of links to medical organizations but most of them have no contextual text after the link. Why is this link farm list here at all?
- Every section seems to have a statistic of how many animals are used in whatever experiments. This adds little to the article and adds major amounts of text. Maybe you need a statistics article.
- The controversy section is a jumble of specific incidents, not an overview.
- Information that is opposed to animal testing is included in the article after any sentence that could ever be seen as promoting it. For instance, the toxicology section; every paragraph ends with a rebuttal statement.
- References are a mish-mash between external links inside the article text, and other links used as references in the "Notes" section. That means the footnotes have a dual-numbering system. Many inline external links are used repeatedly.
- The article is protected from editing by non-adminstrators but is not labeled as protected or any deadline when it will not be protected. Sporadic contributors cannot make any improvements while administrators seem to be the ones causing this laundry list of bad writing. --Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.184.143.23 (talk) 06:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
The answer to your question is a resounding, "YES!" Anyone with any background in science, specifically drug development, sees this article for what it is, a forum for people who are against animal testing of any kind. I won't even call the Animal Rights Activists; this is a term they developed to make them sound like heroes. It's purely self-aggrandizement.
Why don't we link this page to pages of cancer survivors, or maybe we can show pictures of kids devastated by Polio. We can show children who have not been ravaged by measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, you name it. But they'll return to the old stand-by, thalidomide, which was never tested on pregnant animals before being used on humans and is a great example of why animal testing is so pervasively used for drug development. We could show any number of pictures, statistics, results. But, the people will never see the benefit. They are ignorant, and blissfully so, of the benefits of this testing. They don't want to see any good results, because that undermines their self-importance.
Of course, animal testing doesn't correlate 100% to humans, otherwise we would not need to put valiant humans at risk in clinical studies. The first phase of which is testing in healthy adults to determine adverse side effects. But, we wouldn't have any of the medical advances we enjoy (including vaccinations) without animal testing. "My kids were never vaccinated, because it's dangerous and they used animals to develop the vaccines" you say? Then they didn't get sick because everyone else did vaccinate their children. You should get down on your knees and thank all your neighbors for their sacrifice for your children's health.
Enough said, anti animal testing people will not even try to understand the benefits for the reason stated above, but thanks for the vent. --Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.106.3.58 (talk) 14:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- To answer your main question, yes, animal rights activists are very active in editing the page, in particular Slimvirgin, a Wikipedia admin editor. You can see, for example, that all the controversy events are listed on the main page, whereas the history of notable experiments and discoveries is on a sub-page.
- I view the numbers as useful and somewhat neutral, although alternative formatting may improve their presentation.
- Virtually any animal rights photograph may be replaced by a superior picture taken by a scientist. However, Wikipedia MUST have rights to show these images, and the animal rights images are without IP entanglement. But always, the better picture wins. If you replace any picture with a better one without IP entanglement, it will stay.
- There is a constant push-pull between animal rights activists and others, and this results in nearly everything being referenced or deleted (and point/counterpoint). And in many case, outright obvious lies are printed because they are referenced, even when they are obvious (case in point: that chimps in testing can come from circuses and animal trainers which is a referenced factoid despite being an obvious lie, or that 1500-1600 chimps are in testing in the USA (there are only 1133)).
- Slimvirgin really likes xenotransplantation, despite it have an inordinately small importance in the grand scheme of either testing or opposition to testing by activists.
- If you do anything to minimize the controversy section it will be immediately reverted, and you will be accused of POV editing.
- Without protection, too many of the edits are downright stupid (deletion of whole sections replaced by "Animal testing is MEAN!" or other edits irrelevant to testing on any side. The level of vandalism is high, and a look through the history will show that. Signing up for an account is a small price to pay.
- I've been editing fairly regularly on the testing page, its sub-pages, and other pages, for roughly two years. And I run a lab that in part conducts animal research, and I sit on an institutional IACUC. I sort of view this as one of Wikipedia's weak areas - that a small group that uses referenced weak logic and referenced truth-stretching to the max can distort an article as much as this one is. However, you should have seen it two years ago... --Animalresearcher (talk) 18:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
On vivisection
With regards to the recent reverting over the meaning of the term:
- The Ethics of Animal Experimentation by Donna Yarri (ISBN 0195181794), p12: "The term 'vivisection' was used often in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to refer to animals experimentation. It specifically meant the dissection of live animals, but is now broader and includes the use of animals for the induction of disease and for educational purposes. This term has largely been replaced by the term 'animal experimentation', both because the former word has developed a pejorative sense that many do want want to attribute to animal research and because animal research has to do with more than literally dissecting animals."
- "vivisection" The Oxford Companion to the Body. Oxford University Press, (ISBN 019852403X): "From the Latin vivi, living, and sectio, cutting, vivisection, strictly speaking, means cutting live tissues. As such it could be applied to any surgical procedure, including human operations. In practice the word is often used pejoratively as a synonym for experiments on animals, implying cruelty such as the infliction of operative techniques without the use of an anaesthetic."
- Paixao, Rita Leal; Schramm, Fermin Roland. Ethics and animal experimentation: what is debated?. Cad. Saúde Pública, Rio de Janeiro, 2007: "Although the uses vary widely, the term 'animal experimentation' has been used generically. According to Paton (1993:24), this approach makes better reference to the wealth and diversity of scientific research... However, animal protection groups prefer the term vivisection and claim that scientists use the term 'experimentation' so as not to reveal what is really going on (Schar-Manzoli, 1996:3)."
- Pierre A. Fish, Zoophily versus Homophily, Transactions of the American Microscopical Society, Vol. 18, 1897, p142: "The onward march of events, accompanied by new conditions and new methods, has given a much wider significant to the term vivisection than was formerly attached to it. It is quite commonly regarded, by those opposed to the practice, as a method for inflicting ... excruciating pain."
- Richard Dawkins in Student MBJ: "Many animal research activists use the term vivisection - as in cutting open the animals without anaesthetising them. If that's happening, I'm passionately against it. I hope and believe that that is not happening in research laboratories."
Its pretty clear that there is a tension between the pro- and anti- community in the use of the term vivisection as a synonym for animal experimentation. Both groups have their own reasons for wanting it commonly used or not used (both, presumably, because of the imagery it invokes). I think there is significant enough sources to note this difference in use explicitly, rather than just giving two contrasting and attributed definitions and leaving it to the reader to work out. Rockpocket 04:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Double undo
First on vivisection. As noted immediately above, the references I added fully support the sentence I added. First, Carbone's claims that vivisection is specifically not interchangeable with animal research or experimentation to him. In fact, he says he NEVER uses it to refer to testing. If you go through the references I think you will find that the word vivisection is not used comparably by those who oppose and conduct animal testing, and the references further support the word as having pejorative connotations towards testing because it implies suffering, cruelty, pain, and/or torture.
Second on the primate section. I added a bunch of reference material from an international conference on primate resources to the sub-page. It would be difficult to reference it all in this paragraph that refers to the sub-page, because important facts in it come from many of the different talks given. But if you see the primate page, it is all laid out there, and this is appropriate as per earlier discussion that the paragraphs referring to the sub-pages may act as summaries of the material there. There is nothing wrong with the 12000-15000 number (the actual number in 2001 was a little over 14000 according to the CDC), but whereas the facts are in the sub-page, they add a lot of clutter on the main page. Additionally, they lay out how all imported macaques from China and Mauritius are purpose-bred, which means that nearly all primates in testing in Europe and the USA are purpose bred b/c 74% of the macaques imported to Europe come from China, and Mauritius is the second largest source. For the USA, 70% are bred domestically, and most of the rest come purpose bred from China and Mauritius. But again, this was about making the paragraph in WP:LEAD fasion with respect to the sub-page, and making it flow nicely while minimizing clutter. Please try to be constructive instead of reverting material when the sub-page is edited significantly. --Animalresearcher (talk) 18:42, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I remember long time ago seeing you create a bunch of articles about a pack of specific people involved in some Arab related incident and I gave you a barnstar for it. I think you thanked me on my user page for it. So I looked and found this:
Then I check my edits for august 2006 and found nothing, so I am guessing that my edit to your user page giving you a barnstar has been lost in all the whatnot going on with your userpage. I know I remember giving you a barnstar; but perhaps it was a compliment in some other form and you mentally categorized it as not-a-barnstar. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Replacement of LD50 test
- Opportunities and Barriers to the Replacement of Animals in Acute Systemic Toxicity Testing - "the "classical" oral LD50 test was deleted from international pharmaceutical and chemical test guidelines in 1991 and 2002, respectively (9-10), and replaced with several reduction/refinement methods (11-13)"
- R&D toxicity test to be eliminated - "In a rare collaboration between animal rights organizations and scientists, the US has joined a growing worldwide movement to eliminate the use of a toxicity test called the lethal dose-50 (LD50) test, and embrace alternative methods that require fewer animals. Animal rights groups estimate that about 5 million animals per year have been used in LD50 tests in the US alone. The LD50 determines the dosage of a chemical that kills half the animals in a test group--the bigger the dose required, the lower the chemical's toxicity. Test groups typically comprise 50-200 animals, often rats. The test is being phased out internationally and will no longer be used by regulatory agencies for classification and labeling of drugs and chemicals. The International Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), an international trade organization that includes the US, Japan and several member states of the European Union, intends to eliminate the LD50 from its test guidelines by September 2002."
- Acute systemic toxicity--prospects for tiered testing strategies - "After many years of controversy and debate, the LD50 test was finally deleted by the end of 2002. Three alternative animal tests, the Fixed Dose Procedure, the Acute Toxic Class Method and the Up and Down Procedure have been developed which give rise to significant improvements in animal welfare. They have recently undergone revision to improve their scientific performance but more importantly to increase their regulatory acceptance. They can now be used within a strategy for acute toxicity testing for all types of test substances and for all regulatory and in-house purposes. In vitro cytotoxicity tests could be used as adjuncts to these alternative animal tests within the next year or so to improve dose level selection and thus give further modest improvements in the numbers of animals used. However, the total replacement of animal tests requires a considerable amount of further test development, followed by validation, and is at least 10 years away."
Are these sources adequate to show that the LD50 test is "being replaced" (if not now totally replaced) by alternative methods? I can find more sources on this if you wish. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I think we can't say that the LD50 test is no longer used anywhere, but we can be more specific and say that it is no longer recommended or required by "international regulations". I don't know if there are a few places that don't follow these regulations, but in the abscence of data on actual prevalence we should just note what is required and recommended. But there's not much point in discussing only the outdated test and ignoring the current ones. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
The first toxicity test to be developed was the LD50 test (Lethal Dose 50%) in 1927, which involves determining what dose will kill 50 percent of the test animals. Subsequently more humane methods such as the fixed dose procedure were validated, although the LD50 test is also still used. However the LD50 test has been banned in Europe and international regulations now recommend the use of alternative tests.
OK, we can be more specific: The first toxicity test to be developed was the LD50 test (Lethal Dose 50%) in 1927, which involves determining what dose will kill 50 percent of the test animals. Subsequently more humane methods such as the fixed dose procedure were validated, although the LD50 test was still used in about 1/3 of toxicity tests in 2005. However the LD50 test has been banned in Europe and international regulations now recommend the use of alternative tests. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The only reliable source we have on usage is cited, it says approx 1/3 of procedures. What other sources are you referring to? Tim Vickers (talk) 03:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I have no problem in relying on the Nature article to say that LD50 is used for 1/3 of all animal testing worldwide. That would be all testing, not just toxicology, unless I am misreading the source. That still gives us no basis to indicate there is any decline in the actual use of LD50, since all the sources talk about regulations, plans and intentions, but not actual results in terms of animals undergoing LD50 tests per year vs. the new alternative procedures, and any trending. If there is such a source, please point me to it. Crum375 (talk) 03:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Query
Tim, first, please stop adding citation templates to this article. WP:CITE says they should not be added against consensus. They make the text hard to edit.
Secondly, could you provide a source for "This test is was [sic] removed from international regulations in 2002, replaced by methods such as the fixed dose procedure, which use fewer animals and cause less suffering."
The sources you provide are either not online, or don't clearly say it. Page numbers or quotations would help, so people don't have to go hunting. It's not even clear what the sentence means -- "removed from international regulations".
Sources are:
- Walum E (1998). "Acute oral toxicity". Environ. Health Perspect. 106 Suppl 2: 497-503. PMID 9599698. and
- Botham PA (2004). "Acute systemic toxicity--prospects for tiered testing strategies". Toxicol In Vitro. 18 (2): 227-30. PMID 14757114.
SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 17:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Chart
Where in the talk page archive is this discussed? This is simply a re-graphing of the EU data in different colours. See Fifth Report on the Statistics on the Number of Animals used for Experimental and other Scientific Purposes in the Member States of the European Union figure 1.1 p4. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Are you are actually arguing that rotating a section of a pie chart is original research? Tim Vickers (talk) 19:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you are treating mice and rats a bit too lightly, these rodents are not "simple life forms", they are mammals with highly-developed nervous systems. The fact that the graph does not include invertebrates such as worms clearly contradicts the idea that we are aggregating simple life forms with more complex ones such as mammals. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I agree with much of what you say. I was only using "lower order" as a shorthand. I agree that the amount of suffering of the different species is an unknown, and is not necessarily correlated to their size or complexity. But my point remains that these are different species and therefore to lump them in one pile, mice with primates, while excluding the invertebrates, is very misleading and arbitrary. Many people reading this article are concerned about the cost/benefit balance of animal testing (where cost is measured in those elusive units of "suffering"), and many people assume that more complex animals suffer more. Yet, those who presumably suffer more are overwhelmed when presented alongside the less complex creatures. By just arbitrarily adding, say, an estimated number of fruit flies used, the pie chart would totally change, obscuring the mammals. So we are back to what is the most neutral and straightforward way to present the numbers, skirting these contentious issues. Crum375 (talk) 02:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
It is obvious that there are too camps here. One is disturbed by primate experiments, and the other is amazed at the staggering waste of rodents. 129.170.84.151 (talk) 02:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Congratulatory section break
Draize test
I'm concerned that the current description of the Draize test from the National Anti-Vivisection Society website may not be accurate. I found an article called "The Draize Eye Test and in vitro alternatives; a left-handed marriage?" that describes the test in detail. It states:
Note that the animal's eye is only held closed for about one second and that blinking is not prevented. This fits the official OECD test guideline Guideline 405. Similarly in the article The Draize eye test. blinking is again specifically noted.
Does anybody have any objection to me correcting this description? Tim Vickers (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Pain section
I've removed this as it doesn't really seem to say anything:
The 1990 Assessment and Control of the Severity of Scientific Procedures on Laboratory Animals, to "aid communication between all those concerned with the use and welfare of laboratory animals", presents a detailed severity index metric for the operational assessing and controlling of pain and distress in laboratory animal procedures based on numerically assigned evaluations of the following considerations: consciousness, anesthesia, preparation, restraint, duration, tissue sensitivity, organ risk, mortality, pain, distress, deprivation, and frequency. Operational control of severity considerations include: management practices, psychosocial influences, disease, objective measurement and record keeping, training, procedure design practices, basic husbandry considerations, and planning for emergency and humane end-points for each procedure.
SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 00:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- consciousness,
- anesthesia,
- preparation,
- restraint,
- duration,
- tissue sensitivity,
- organ risk,
- mortality,
- pain,
- distress,
- deprivation, and
- frequency.
Operational control of severity considerations include:
- management practices,
- psychosocial influences,
- disease,
- objective measurement and record keeping,
- training,
- procedure design practices,
- basic husbandry considerations, and
- planning for emergency and humane end-points for each procedure.
I suppose the data is densely packed, but nowhere else in the article do we present any actual details about what the "on the ground" criteria are concerning pain management in animal testing. I think it is important not to just wave our hands and talk in complete generalities. The source is there for anyone who wishes to expand on or better understand the listed considerations. WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Lead
I combined some refs in the lead and removed some blue to make it look less frantic. I also combined two pargraphs, and put the sentence "the topic is controversial" (which I changed to highly controversial) at the beginning of those paragraphs. Previously it had been at the start of the third paragraph, which suggested that only that paragraph - the anti-paragraph -- contained the controversial points, whereas it's both the pro and the anti positions that are controversial. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 00:31, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is about animal testing, it is not about animal testing in vertebrates. Our coverage of animal testing in invertebrates needs to be expanded, if anything, due to the importance of this group of animals in current science. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
No, animal experimentation or "animal testing" as we dub it in this article is the use of animals in research. Insects are animals and they are used in research - hence they must be discussed in this article. The use of this inexact term "animal testing" as the title of this article is a constant problem, as noted many times above on this talk page, but since that is what we seem to be stuck with, that is what we have to work with. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:15, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Just looking at toxicology testing alone, there are a wealth of sources on the use of invertebrates in animal testing.
- Lagadic L, Caquet T (1998). "Invertebrates in testing of environmental chemicals: are they alternatives?". Environ. Health Perspect. 106 Suppl 2: 593-611. PMID 9599707.
- deFur PL (2004). "Use and role of invertebrate models in endocrine disruptor research and testing". ILAR J. 45 (4): 484-93. PMID 15454687.
- Williams PL, Anderson GL, Johnstone JL, Nunn AD, Tweedle MF, Wedeking P (2000). "Caenorhabditis elegans as an alternative animal species". J. Toxicol. Environ. Health Part A. 61 (8): 641-7. PMID 11132694. CS1 maint: Multiple names: authors list (link)
- Vogel EW, Graf U, Frei HJ, Nivard MM (1999). "The results of assays in Drosophila as indicators of exposure to carcinogens". IARC Sci. Publ. (146): 427-70. PMID 10353398. CS1 maint: Multiple names: authors list (link)
That is before you examine the importance of invertebrates in pure research, where flies and worms are by far the most important species. Is your argument for excluding invertebrates from this article that you think people don't usually consider flies as animals? Tim Vickers (talk) 01:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Why the fly? - meta-discussion on the role of the fruit fly in animal experimentation.
- Nonmammalian Animal Models for Biomedical Research - Two chapters of this book deal with insects and crustaceans, respectively.
- The Experimental Animal in Biomedical Research - Chapter 1 deals with invertebrates.
You might also find these links interesting:
- Model organisms: The fruit fly - Historical background and current uses.
- Human Use of Non-Human Animals - a Biologist's View Looking at the importance of worms in animal experimentation and even examining the moral implications.
- How useful are animal models of human disease? Talks about both worms and flies.
- Scientific Alternatives to Animal Testing: A Progress Report Mentions flies, worms and fish as being particularly useful.
- WormBook - a guide to everything worm-related.
Couple these with almost one million Google Scholar hits for Drosophila and you have a very notable organism. As I said before, this article isn't about the controversy, it is about the subject. Flies and worms are vital to modern animal experimentation, we can't miss them out, and we probably need to talk about them more. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Great, thank you. I have a friend who works on Drosophila, she got very upset and angry when I once "dissed" her organism. Once you've listened to the impassioned defense of "why flies tell us everything we need to know" for half an hour it tends to stick in the memory! :) Tim Vickers (talk) 02:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Quote
Tim, can you provide a source for "impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects ..." The page you linked to doesn't show it. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 22:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
"Some people also claim that it is unnecessary for animals to be used as research subjects and that computer or other nonanimal models could be used instead. In some cases this is true, and scientists strive to use computer models and other nonanimal methods whenever possible; however, many of the interactions that occur between molecules, cells, tissues, organs, organisms, and the environment are too complex for even the most sophisticated of computers to model. At present, it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects for some aspects of research." - edit conflict, its page 1 and 2. The longer quote might be better, what do people think? Tim Vickers (talk) 22:41, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- "We have all benefited immensely from scientific research involving animals. From antibiotics and insulin to blood transfusions and treatments for cancer or HIV, virtually every medical achievement in the past century has depended directly or indirectly on research on animals. The same is true for veterinary medicine. Modern biology, with all its contributions to the well-being of society, is heavily dependent on research on animals." [13]
- "Humans have benefited immensely from scientific research involving animals, with virtually every medical achievement in the past century reliant on the use of animals in some way. Developments in the treatment of diabetes, leukaemia and heart surgery transplants, amongst others, have been made possible through the use of animals in scientific research. The majority of the scientific community consider that the benefits that have been provided by the use of animals in research justify this use." [14]
Hmmm, I'd hate to choose between the two! Both are extremely authoritative, but since most of are readership are probably Americans, I'd be tempted to cater for parochialism. Especially since most people who have heard of the Royal Society will have probably have heard of the US-NAS, but possibly not the other way around? Tim Vickers (talk) 23:21, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Since almost all of our readers won't know that the ILAR are part of the National Academies, I took Rockpocket's excellent suggestion and substituted the Royal Society report instead. It is just as authoritiative, and hopefully there won't be any confusion about authorship. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Question about the quote; please answer
Tim, can you please answer the question about why you changed the quote? This is the kind of thing that poisons these pages and turns them needlessly into battlefields, so I would really like to pin it down. Do you honestly see no significant distinction between: "it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects," and "At present, it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects for some aspects of research"? SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 23:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Quote changed again
The previous quote was good, because it's the first time we've actually had anything explanatory in the lead. It cited the source as saying: "'[a]t present, it is impossible to advance biomedical science without the use of animal subjects for some aspects of research,' because interactions between molecules, cells, tissues, organs, organisms, and the environment are too complex for even very sophisticated computers to model."
The current quote goes back to say nothing, and seems to have been changed only to make the source sound more respectable, rather than with the aim of giving the reader information. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 00:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Animal welfare groups
Thinking about the notability of the groups we quote in the lead, I think WP:UNDUE should really apply here. Why are the opinions of the larger Animal welfare groups not cited. The US Humane society and the RSPCA are obvious examples. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Looking at what the mainstream animal welfare groups say, their statements appear more balanced and less extreme than those of PETA and Americans For Medical Advancement. Describing the mainstream scientific view, while only describing the extremist animal welfare group position - and omitting the mainstream animal welfare groups statements - seems to be giving undue weight to a minority opinion. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- "As do most scientists, The HSUS advocates an end to the use of animals in research and testing that is harmful to the animals. Accordingly, we strive to decrease and eventually eliminate harm to animals used for these purposes." HSUS Statement on Animals in Biomedical Research, Testing, and Education
- "The RSPCA adopts a constructive and practical approach, judging every issue individually, critically questioning the necessity and justification for animal use and striving to reduce the conflict between animals and science wherever possible." RSPCA Research animals home - Research animals
I tried adding the RSPCA quote to show the range of opinion on this topic amongst the mainstream animal welfare groups. It seemed the less woolly of the two, and as this is certainly one of the most important of such groups, its nuanced position is very important. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
The article, and the lead, should summarise not only opposition to animal testing, but the positions of each notable group of people involved in the issue. The opinions of the more extreme abolitionist groups such as PETA should certainly be discussed in the article, but they should not be given undue weight. Both the RSPCA and the US-HS have clear positions on the issue, and these are very large and important groups of people. To cite Americans For Medical Advancement, which appears to be a one-man organisation, and ignore the largest animal welfare groups in the world, is inconsistent with our policies. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed them, the very definition of fringe! Since both organisations have position papers and large areas of their website devoted to the issue, they obviously have a view on the matter. What would you summarise this as, SV, reading the material I linked to above? We should be able to summarise this in a sentence or two. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Intro
The "controversy" section only constitutes about 25% of the article, but references to the controversy currently occupy 50% of the intro. Also, the intro doesn't really summarize the "Reasearch classification" section even though it is a major portion of the article. Cla68 (talk) 02:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, I don't think I've ever edited the same content article that you were editing before, so I don't understand your accusation either. I think the use of such a label is unfortunate and counterproductive. If you think I'm "wikistalking" you (whatever that really means), I invite you to bring it up on the appropriate forum and we can exhaustively discuss each other's behavior and ethics. My attention was also drawn to this article because of the 3RR warning you gave Tim on his talk page and I've been watching it for some time. In the past I've also gotten involved in other controversial subjects, including Global Warming, Sea of Japan, and Gary Weiss. Anyway, back to my original thought...the intro as written doesn't presently match the article that follows below it. Cla68 (talk) 04:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Source of the article : Wikipedia
EmoticonEmoticon