Maps, Directions, and Place Reviews
Marxist
Che is repeatedly called a "Marxist" in the course of the article and elsewhere on Wikipedia. As far as I know, Che called himself "Communist", not "Marxist", and "Marxist" is therefore OR. Additionally, his authoritarian politics are more in line with quasi-fascists like Josef Stalin or Mao Zedong than Karl Marx, who influenced anarchist thought. Article should definitely be changed to say "Communist", but I have no doubt there will be opposition so I'm raising the idea here. --Switch 07:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Addition to the dicussion: The topic to distinquish between Marxist and Comminist has been discussed before, this from the archives:[1] --Dakota ~ 17:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I didn't know he had called himself a Marxist. Okay then, never mind. That's good enough for me. --Switch 07:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
What's wrong with the new crit. intro?
If you don't like it, improve it, don't revert it! --71.141.100.105 08:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Professional title, etc.
The article begins with a few mistakes:
"... was an Argentine-born physician, Marxist revolutionary, politician, and leader of Cuban and internationalist guerrillas."
First, the words "Argentine", "Marxist" and "Cuban" have not reason to appear in caps.
Second, Ernesto Guevara was a doctor (dermatologist), not a physician.
Third, the word "guerrillas" could be changed for "revolutions".
--201.253.80.77 16:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Switching pictures
I hope it won't offend anyone, but I substituted the Der Spiegel picture in the Legacy section for a picture of a poetry reading in front of a Che Guevara mural/painting at Colegio Cesar Chavez. There are four reasons I have done this: 1. As this is the English language website, most who visit this site are unfamiliar with the Der Spiegel publication, and therefore any significance of a Che cover will be lost on most visitors. Therefore, I think it is more relevant to have a picture from an institution that was in the United States. 2. Colegio Cesar Chavez was an activist institution that symbolically looked to Che Guevara, and in fact was almost named in his honor. And because Colegio was the first and only Chicano/Mexican-American college in the United States, it is quite notable in this context. It can in some ways be seen as an extension of Che's movement. 3. The picture in question has been released into the public domain, which I doubt the picture of Der Spiegel has been. My understanding is that Wikipedia prefers free pictures to fair use pictures. 4. I really believe that the picture from Colegio deserves to be on this page as I think it is of more historical pertinence than the Der Spiegel cover, but there just isn't enough room in that section for three pictures. -- Andrew Parodi 11:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not the best picture, but it's more historically pertinent than the cover of a foreign magazine that most English speakers have never heard of. In regard to it already being on the "popular culture" page, many pictures on Wikipedia are shown on different pages.
For clarification, the reason the picture is in both places is because I found the "popular culture" article before I found the "legacy" section in this main article. If I had to choose, I'd refer for the picture to be in the legacy section of the main article, because Colegio Cesar Chavez really does not qualify as "popular culture."
I think it's significant that there was a mural of Che Guevara in Colegio Cesar Chavez, the only four-year Hispanic/Chicano in the nation. And I think it's significant that the founders of the college had considered naming the college "Colegio Che Guevara." I think it is at least worth mentioning in the article. And if you don't like the picture I put up, there is also this one: Image:Colegiopoetryreading2.jpg
Granted, they are not the best quality pictures, but they are over 20 years old at this point, and they capture an aspect of history, whereas the picture of the magazine captures, well, a magazine that most English speakers who visit this site have never heard of. Further, the mural on the wall of the Colegio building seems relatively in keeping with the other picture, which is of a mural (of sorts) of Che on the outside of a building. Lastly, as I mentioned, the image is a "free image", which I've heard is preferable to a "fair use" image. -- Andrew Parodi 19:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Ciao,Image:Bookletche.jpg appears to be from a spanish language book or magazine of antique vintage and I notice that the uploader perhaps mistakenly labeled it self made. Improperly licensed images are not permitted in articles. It needs to have the source and proper license and then it may be considered after a concensus of editors is made. --Dakota ~ 21:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The mural of Che Guevara is on the wall (right side) above the seated man. I have a higher resolution of the picture. I put the fair use tag on it because you said the other tag wasn't appropriate. However, I am still pretty certain that "fair use" isn't even necessary because I think the copyright has expired, as there is no copyright information in the book, no list of photographers, the college was a non-profit institution, and the institution closed over 20 years ago.
If the picture isn't acceptable, would anyone have any problem with me at least including a mention of Colegio Cesar Chavez in the legacy section? I think it's relevant that there was a mural of him in this school, the only Hispanic four-year college in the nation, and that they had considered naming the school after him. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 04:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
If the Colegio Cesar Chavez had been named for Che Guevara instead of for Cesar Chavez that information might have been relevant for inclusion in the "Legacy" section of the Che Guevara article. The fact that the possibility of naming the Colegio for Che Guevara was considered, but it was decided instead to name it for Cesar Chavez means that it is not. This is a featured article and as such it must meet certain standards; it is already considered by some editors to be too long -- that is why several of its sections have been split off into separate ('child') articles as you must have noticed since you have edited one of them, i.e. Che Guevara in popular culture. If you wish, we can explore the possibility of putting a link to the Colegio Cesar Chavez article in the Legacy category of the "See Also" section of the Che Guevara article. Then you can put any photos that you wish into the Colegio Cesar Chavez article (that I notice you are currently working on) and their quality and copyright status will not be of any concern to editors here. Does this alternative interest you? -- Polaris999 04:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Comments requested: On the basis of the foregoing discussion, User:Andrew Parodi and I would like to propose that a link to the Colegio Cesar Chavez article be added to the Legacy category of the "See Also" section of the main "Che Guevara" article and we request the opinions of other editors about this.
Thank you -- Polaris999 14:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it a micky mouse one - it looks funny.lol 222.154.55.35 01:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I thought the photo of Che Guevara beside Ghandi was a bit peculiar. Is it asserted that Guevara was a non-violent revolutionary? DonPMitchell 04:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the late comment, but most English speakers will be no more familiar with Colegio Cesar Chavez (even though it was located in the U.S.) than they are with Der Spiegel. Probably most who are aware of one are also aware of the other. - Jmabel | Talk 16:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The USA Today article
I was wondering if perhaps others agree that the USA Today article that is linked to in this article is useless: [4] It's not so much that I disagree or agree with the statements made (though I do agree and disagree with some statements), it's just that overall this seems to be a terribly written article. I know that goes without saying, as it is USA Today. But what I was wondering was if perhaps better quality articles could be linked to with regard to criticism of Che. I'm sure some of his critics have more substantial statements to make than what is mentioned in this article. I mean, the article seems to say that we should be thankful Che wasn't successful or else we wouldn't have iPods, and that if he had been successful than we'd all be raising donkeys. The tone of the article seems to me to be juvenile. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 09:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay. I think the article touches on a good point. I think it's always unsettling to see political personalities turned into fashion icons by people who don't even know what they were about. But the article just isn't that good. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 01:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Request for evaluation of proposed link for addition to External Links section
The following link was added to the "External Links" section (English category) a few hours ago by User:24.44.45.54 without prior discussion so I have transferred it over here to the Talk page so that wikipedians can comment as to whether or not it is appropriate for inclusion there.
- Che Guevara: Anatomy of a Myth video - interviews of people close to Che Guevara
If you support its inclusion, please comment also as to whether it should be placed in the "English" or "Spanish" category of "External Links".
Thank you -- Polaris999 14:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Polaris, I added the link. I was unsure whether it should be under "English" or "Spanish" because the page is in English, but the video is Spanish. Apparently, it is a video critique of Che (I don't understand Spanish, unfortunately). Since, articles are supposed to be NPOV, links can be to differing views, so I do think the link should be included, and would be of interest to some people. In any case, I don't think it should be removed or censored. Maybe the seperate English/Spanish links section is too restricting. Maybe "Other". 24.44.45.54 22:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Polaris, You are probably right. The video is in Spanish. Frankly, it's kind of kooky the way they did that. English page, Spanish video. You would have thought that if someone is reading their page in English, they'd have a video dubbed in English available. I don't exactly know what the video is about, but it does look interesting. Have you watched it? I gather it's anti-Che, and you're pro-Che, so I appreciate your open-mindedness to allow a link to what you probably think is just propaganda. I usually try to look at all sides and try to make up my mind - which isn't always too easy. ;-) Anyway, will you move the link to the Spanish section, or should I? Thanks. P.S. What would you do with a web link to a page that is both English & Spanish!!
Che Guevara's house (again)
The Municipality of Rosario has just put up a sign indicating the location of Guevara's house (previously there wasn't any indication, then the current owners refused to let a plaque be placed directly on the house). I took a picture. The Municipality also sponsored a celebration of Guevara's 78th birthday with the presence of friends and the Cuban Ambassador (see poster). Just in case this is useful. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 19:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Comments invited
I am transferring this discussion from my Talk page to the Talk page of the Che Guevara article so that other wikipedians will be more likely to see it and can participate if they wish to do so ...
Background:
This discussion is focussed on the third sentence of the second paragraph of the "Criticism" sub-section of the main Che Guevara article. For many weeks that sentence had been as follows:
They assert that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of thousands of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.[61]
In two postings on 15 June 2006 , specifically. at 20:41, 15 June 2006 and at 20:43, 15 June 2006, User:12.98.133.245 modified the aforementioned sentence without prior discussion on this Talk page to read as follows:
They assert that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of thousands of people in Cuban prisons and labor camps, which targeted gays, dissidents, and AIDS patients [2], and for the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.[61]
As soon as I saw this modification I reverted it with the following explanation:
21:34, 15 June 2006 Polaris999 (rv because absurd -- Guevara died in 1967, AIDS wasn't even discovered until December 1981: See AIDS )
User:12.98.133.245 then began a discussion on my Talk page, as follows:
Timeline
Why can't I see the timeline? It's just a line for me. If I open directly the template, I see the same. NCurse work 07:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Expression "Rough"
I'm a lifelong hiker and outdoorsman, and I've never heard this expression, to travel "rough". Is this British usage? Esbullin
I think it is a bit British (also "to sleep rough", meaning to lie down wherever there is a space available, usually outdoors). I'm afraid I've bounced back and forth enough that if I learned a phrase past age 17 or so, I'm sometimes not sure which side of the Atlantic it comes from. - Jmabel | Talk 16:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Single most important addition to this article
We need documentation on the statement attributed in this article to Guevara that had the nuclear missiles of the Cuban Missile Crisis been under Cuban rather than Soviet control, they (presumably meaning he and Castro) would have fired them against major US cities. No other aspect of this man's life is as important. If it is accurate, and he seriously favored the direct murder of millions in an act that would certainly have triggered all-out nuclear holocaust and the death of billions and a collapse of civilization, it is safe to say that history will eventually see him for what he must have been: a dangerous, malevolent lunatic. If it is not accurate, the debate will go on... I will be trying to ferret out sources on this, but my time and energy is severely limited due to illness. I urge others to find reliable references and link to or quote from them on this Talk page so we can craft a definitive paragraph on this point for the article. Thx. JDG 14:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Sentence with poor context
The following sentence appears in the Bolivia section: "In September, however, the Army managed to eliminate two guerrilla groups, reportedly killing one of the leaders". It isn't very clear what this means or how relevant it is. Who were these groups? Twittenham 16:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Reverted edit
I reverted an edit [6] by Ismoot adding that the operation capturing Che was a CIA and Special Forces Op. I left a msg on his user talk explaining that I did it b/c the edit didn't meet WP:V.--Kchase02 T 20:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Size
This article is 80 kilobytes long. Some parts could probably be trimmed off and placed in seperate parts. 64.111.128.11 23:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Che Stadium
Isn't there a stadium named after Guevara?
"Che Stadium"?
72.82.195.2 01:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I hope that was a very bad pun on your part.
72.68.171.50 23:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
It was quite a bad pun, very out of place but perhaps you were just kidding.--222.98.9.39 06:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The origin of this joke may possibly lie in the article on The Rutles (A British Beatles parody from the late 1970's). Britmax 21:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Hagiography
At least, from my vantage point.
That's what this article seems like to me.
Do you think it would be possible to either substantially expand the criticism portion, or-at the very least-move it further up in the article?
72.68.171.50 23:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
AIDS
"Cuba's labor camp system was eventually used to jail "gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims."" Its quite certain than Guevara himself didn't jail any AIDS victim.... Ericd 18:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Sentence removed because incorrect source was given
At 04:41, 18 June 2006, User:4.154.72.112 added the following sentence to the "Criticism" section:
The source given for the above statement is, first, not presented in the standard WP format as per WP:CITE; second, when I went to the amazon.com site to which it links and searched inside the book by David Horowitz presented there, the name "Morrison" did not appear on any page of the book, therefore the cited work cannot be the source for the statement in question (see WP:V).
While it is possible that Horowitz made such a statement, the correct source must be cited if it is to be included in the CG article, and this information must be provided both in a source note in the format used throughout this article (i.e., <ref></ref>) and in the appropriate section of the "References" section. -- Polaris999 06:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I obviously misremembered. If I find the exact source I'll resubmit. [[User:The Sanity Inspector|The Sanity Inspector}}
Acta de Nacimiento de Ernesto Guevara de la Serna (Birth Certificate)
The pertinent excerpts from his official Birth Certificate, shown above, read as follows:
el día quince de junio de mil novecientos veintiocho a las diez y siete horas
Ante mí, Jefe encargado del Registro del Estado Civil, se presentó Don Ernesto Rafael Guevara domiciliado en calle Entre Ríos cuatrocientos ochenta de veintiocho años de edad de estado casado de nacionalidad argentina de profesión hacendado vecino de esta ciudad declarando
Que en su domicilio el día catorce del corriente mes de junio a las tres y cinco horas nació un niño de color blanco que es hijo legítimo suyo y de su esposa Doña Celia de la Serna y Llosa, de veintidos años de edad, argentina.
Que es nieto por línea paterna de Don Roberto Guevara y de Doña Ana Lynch y, por línea materna, de Don Juan Martín de la Serna y de Doña Edelmira Llosa y que al expresado niño se le ha puesto el nombre de Ernesto
Todo lo cual presenciaron como testigos Don Raúl Lynch de veintidos años de edad de estado soltero, de nacionalidad argentina, de profesión Marino domiciliado en esta ciudad y Don José Beltran de treinta años de edad, de estado soltero, de nacionalidad brasileña de profesión chofer.
(Signatures of Ernesto Guevara Lynch, the two witnesses, and the Jefe del Registro del Estado Civil appear at the bottom of the document.)
NB: The above Birth Certificate is on display in the Che Guevara Museum in Alta Gracia, Argentina q.v.: Che Guevara Museum and Room of Museum where his Birth Certificate is displayed as is described on that Museum's website in the following words:
And here is one additional piece of confirmatory evidence -- the name that the Cuban Consejo de Estado inscribed on his coffin (which rests in the Che Guevara Mausoleum in Santa Clara) is Ernesto Guevara de la Serna, viz:Coffin of Che Guevara
Polaris999 19:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
* * * * *
Che Guevara's Last Words
I have just noticed that a short time ago a wikipedian entered a comment re CG's last words in an incorrect location here on the Talk page, so I am creating this as a new topic and will transfer his comment into it. Polaris999 05:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
HEYYYYYYY those arent che guevara´s final words!! NO WAYY!his last words in Spanish were "dejeme ponerme de pie!, y por favor sostenga la pistola fuertemente!.... usted esta por matar a un hombre!" that in Enlgish would be: "let me stand up... please hold the gun firmly... you are about to kill a man!". Anyone who has read about Che Guevara knows this... i hope it will be changed.... thanx felix
"Serenese y apunte bien! Va usted a matar un hombre!" (Calm down and aims well! you are going to kill a man ..) According to la Higuera teacher. http://www.flickr.com/photos/frederico_mendes/14874024/in/set-279653/ Ericd 23:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Final Hours
At 17:27, 9 July 2006, User:Sniggity inserted the following two sentences into the "Capture and Execution" sub-section:
There are some problems with this text. First, it is not properly referenced as per the WP:CITE criteria. When adding information to this featured article, please provide a source that meets Wikipedia standards as established in WP:V and then create:
Second, one point all sources seem to be in agreement about concerning Guevara's final hours is the fact that Félix Rodríguez arrived in La Higuera aboard a helicopter with Colonel Zenteno early on the morning of 09 October. There is no record of his having been in La Higuera and spoken with Guevara the evening before (see, for example, Taibo, Paco Ignacio II. Ernesto Guevara, también conocido como el Che, page 701). Guevara was executed at approximately 1:10 pm on 09 October, so he was not alive the evening of 09 October to be speaking with anyone. Therefore, in order for the sentence you have inserted to be correct (assuming that you heard it clearly) either Rodríguez has changed his story after all these years, or the History Channel misrepresented what he said. It is important to document which case applies if this sentence is going to be added to the article. Thank you -- Polaris999 22:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
I repeat
To my disappointment, no one has taken up the single most important issue for this article. I will repeat:
We need documentation on the statement attributed in this article to Guevara that had the nuclear missiles of the Cuban Missile Crisis been under Cuban rather than Soviet control, they (presumably meaning he and Castro) would have fired them against major US cities. No other aspect of this man's life is as important. If it is accurate, and he seriously favored the direct murder of millions in an act that would certainly have triggered all-out nuclear holocaust and the death of billions and a collapse of civilization, it is safe to say that history will eventually see him for what he must have been: a dangerous, malevolent lunatic. If it is not accurate, the debate will go on... I will be trying to ferret out sources on this, but my time and energy is severely limited due to illness. I urge others to find reliable references and link to or quote from them on this Talk page so we can craft a definitive paragraph on this point for the article.
Sorry for the repetition, but all these other issues are tiny compared to this. JDG 01:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, it might be nice to track down the particular citation in the Daily Worker. Right now, the quote trails off oddly in the footnote "...clearly a man of great intelligence though I thought he was crackers from the way he went on about the." I believe only James Joyce is allowed to end a sentence with "the". - Jmabel | Talk 18:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The only problem I see here is that the Wikipedia version claims that Che said he would attack major US cities, while the citation itself says nothing about cities. Where is the quote about attacking major cities? If someone has it, please post a link or copy the citation with respective quote. BBUCommander
Awfully long lead section
Polaris asked me to give my impression of recent changes to the article. I don't have the focus to really give this right now, but one thing leaps out: the lead section has become much longer than is normal for a biography, even of a major figure with a complicated life. For examples of other featured biographies of political figures, consider Attila the Hun, Claudius Joan of Arc, (all much shorter); Armand Jean du Plessis, Cardinal Richelieu (somewhat shorter); Mahatma Ghandi is the only other one I see that is about this long. I'm sure that pretty much everything there is echoed below; I'm almost certain it could be said more succinctly in the lead, and perhaps some of it omitted from the lead, but I don't have the energy to take it on right now. - Jmabel | Talk 01:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
These changes seem perfectly reasonable to me. Kwertii 02:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Some general problems?
I'm coming at this from the persective of someone who knows little about the subject, I was reading to learn and noticed a few things. In the "Guatemala" section, a woman "Hilda Gadea" is introduced as Che's main political contact. The next reference is to Che selling her jewelry, it isn't until later in the "Cuba" section that they are noted as being in a relationship. The sentence directly after the jewelry selling is "Then, on May 15, 1954, a shipment of high-quality Skoda infantry and light artillery weapons sent from Communist Czechoslovakia for the Arbenz Government arrived in Puerto Barrios aboard the Swedish ship Alfhem.", but there is no clear reference as to why this is particulary important to the article, and the paragraph goes on talking about tonnage of this shipment and Che going to get a new Visa. I can kind of connect the dots, but it seems to me a bit confusing the way it is written.--Trees4est 02:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Size again
I read in this talk page a notice regarding the size of the article (80KB at the time). The article is now 96KB, that's almost THREE times the recommended article size. My head hurts from reading. --Iafrate 20:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Other than shortening the introduction (which seems to be an unpopular proposal), it's really hard to imagine what to cut. This has become (with the inevitable limitiation of successfully "digesting" new contributions) a really good piece on Guevara. Iafrate, any concrete suggestions for trimming? - Jmabel | Talk 00:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Z: you might concentrate your efforts on content rather than style, as it is this article quite biased. For example it does not even full admit Guevara's role as executioner, yet "cries like a baby" when talking about his death. El Jigue 8-23-06
Physician, etc.
I see that "physician" was recently removed from the lead. He was certainly degreed in medicine. I don't know the relevant considerations in the relevant countries, and I know that these terms vary from country to country. Can someone please come up with a term that is appropriate, and put it back in the lead? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 23:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
In the systems of medical education common in Latin America, it is my understanding that the title "Doctor" refers to completion of first four years of theoretical studies, after secondary studies. Clinical experience training which usually takes about three more additional years makes a Doctor into a "Medico." It seems from his biography that by this definition Guevara was a Doctor (if he completed the first four years) but not a Medico. El Jigue 9-17-06
You have this backwards. "Medico" is the profession - physician. "Doctor" is an especially learned person who has additional postgraduate education. It´s sort of like having a Ph.D. in addition to your M.D. in the States. But in practice all physicians are called "Doctor" or "Doctora," even if they don´t have a doctorate. Regarding Che, I find his status as a physican to be nearly irrelevant and not worthy of appearing in the opening paragraph. He spent far more effort stealing, torturing, and executing than he ever did as a healer. - PJ 11-2-06
References to 7th year of Medicine in Argentina include: "parte de la currícula de séptimo año de la Carrera de Medicina." [8] "Alumno de 7º año de la carrera de Médico" [9] "Pasantía Rural como actividad para el 7º año de la carrera de médico. " [10]. Thus it seems that my statement above is consistent with medical education in Argentina. Thus, it follows logically that Ernesto "Che" Guevara had completed only about four of the required seven years of studies that would have given him the degree of Médico. Thus I suggest that this distinction ("As a young man studying medicine, hoping to later become a doctor") has place in his biography. However, the statement that "Upon his return to Argentina, he completed his medical studies" seems incorrect. As is now my usual practice I will not change the text, but merely smile at yet another Wikipedia error. El Jigue 9-18-06
Discrepancy over motorcycle's name
While the common English translation of Guevara's motocycle's name, La Poderosa, is "The Mighty One", I feel it's an inaccurate translation. A literal translation would be "The Powerful One" as "Poder" means "Power" in Spanish. Though another translation (which makes more sense to me) would be "The Almighty." In religious use God is often referred to (mostly in prayer) as "Dios todo Poderoso" ("God Almighty"). I feel this is something that should be corrected. "The Mighty One" is the accepted translation in the biographies I've read, and though it makes insignificant difference, I felt like pointing it out. Throw 08:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Would I be "party pooper" if I pointed out the darn thing broke down and was apparently abandoned. El Jigue 9-15-06
Opinions, please --
Someone recently inserted the adjective "communist" into the sentence below to describe Sartre; no citation is provided. (The source note at the end of the sentence is one that I had put there many months ago: It is a source for the comment by Sartre, not for the description of him as "communist".)
I would like to hear from other editors whether they consider "communist" a correct description of Sartre, or whether the adjective should be removed and the sentence returned to its status quo ante. Thank you. -- Polaris999 17:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
It is most certainly not our place to speculate who "sounds like a Communist". If Sartre was not a member of the CP, the adjective does not apply. Period. End of story. Some other adjective might apply, like "fellow-traveller" or "Communist-inspired". But that would only be necessary for someone with a lot less prominence than Sartre, where context was needed. People can read his article for more discussion of Sartre, if needed. In fact, I think the adjectives "French" and "philosopher" are a bit superfluous here also (arguably, he's better read as a novelist or journalist, for example... though this is hardly the place for that clarification). In an article about Guevara, we need not use any adjectives to insinuate what Sartre was or was not specifically; he's relevant just for the quote, and needs no more than his name to introduce it. LotLE×talk 14:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that when communists (note lower c) organize into parties they tend to have overt or red (Alba nomenclature) and black or covert members. Alba, Víctor 1968 Politics and the labor movement in Latin America. Stanford University Press, Stanford, California. ASIN B0006BNYGK El Jigue 9-23-06
Thus, while it is easy to tag a "card carrying" Communist it is far more difficult to define the association of a communist to this ideology. Thus one can argue that Sartre was not a Communist and yet still was a communist. Such cases still raise interest as aging communists in Cuba, apparently seeking some kind of immortality in written history, reveal and/or enhance their original covert status as Communist Party members (PSP) e.g. García Verdecia, José (pepe "El Bravo") accessed 9-21-06 Testimonios de las luchas del campesinado en nuestro municipio Dirección de Cultura, Colombia, Las Tunas, Cuba. Jueves 21 de septiembre del 2006 [12]. El Jigue 9-23-06
The double secret codicles of Wikipedia
Xe xe that response above is most amusing, it sounds as if Wikipedia is run by Dean Wormer of the movie "Animal House", with his double secret codicles. Well this most apt demonstration of a ban on internal consistency, supports my thesis that Wikipedia is frequently and selectively biased. If you want a better product you better do some of the work and look up the same reference as is cited, xe xe El Jigue 9-22-06
Since nobody seems ready even to do the smallest bit of work or is it "... each according to his ability" (:>. Here we go: "he was a political polemicist who embraced Marxism and Communism, supporting the purges of Stalin and Mao. In the latter years of his life he marched in the streets for Third World liberation and exhausted himself intellectually in the hopeless task of reconciling existentialism, Marxism, and psychoanalysis." [13]. Or " Dopo l'adesione al comunismo, Sartre trascorse il resto della sua vita nel tentativo di riconciliare le idee esistenzialistiche con i principi del marxismo, convinto che le forze socio-economiche determinino il corso dell'esistenza umana." [14]. Or perhaps "Sartre, Jean-Paul philosopher and hero of the French Resistance, lived an unconventional and full life defining and popularizing the existentialist philosophy that says humans are frighteningly free but responsible for the choices they make. (Phototheque Hachette) French thinker born in 1905, engagement philosopher, existentialist, writer and dramaturge, author of " Being and Nothingness ," "Huis Clos," " Les Mouches ," "Les Mains Sales," "La Nausee," "Critique of Dialectic Reason," and " Les Mots " for which he received, in 1960, the nobel prize that he declined; director of the forbidden "Cause du peuple" and " Liberation " until 1974. * He took part in the French Resistance and was taken prisoner in second world war.He joined the Communist Party (PC) because of the need to take an active part in the fight for the proletarian. *With Simone de Beauvoir , he traveled to Cuba China Russia Africa , to promote the revolutions." [15] xe xe Now I will lay back and watch revisionists attack each point and then defying reason say Sartre was not a communist xe xe El Jigue 9-22-06
Darn my old memory what "Dean Wormer" said was: "[Dean Wormer's plotting to get rid of Delta House] Greg Marmalard: But Delta's already on probation. Dean Vernon Wormer: They are? Well, as of this moment, they're on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION! " [16]
Codicle [17], is an archaic spelling for codicil [18] it means "little code or law." That is the trouble of being multilingual one sustitutes words in one language into another. Long agao Martin Albert told me that would happen and it would get worse when I got older, he was correct.
Martin L. Albert and Loraine K. Obler 1978 Perspectives In Neurolinguistics : The Bilingual Brain : Neuropsychological and Neurolinguistic Aspects of Bilingualism Academic Press ISBN 0120487500
This brings us to the question of exclusive use of translations, which bring their own conscious and unconscious baggage which cause differences between the original and the translation. I suggest that where possible, both the original and the translated versions be cited. For instance Mary Alice Waters' translation of "Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War" ISBN 0873488245 is affected both by her marxist ideology, and her lack of familiarity with the Cuban milieu, especially that of the Sierra Maestra and ethnic roots. To Waters the Sierra Montuno, --inheritor to the Taíno, Cimarrón and Mambí cultures wild, armed and dangerous-- is a mere peasant. In addition, one should take into consideration the authors' own biases, Guevara was a tireless self-promoter, as were and still are many powerful figures in history, from Ramses II to Columbus, and Batista to Kissinger. El Jigue 9-23-06
Removal of the Spanish external links
Not to rock the boat of a clearly established and strong article... but the sizable list of Spanish language external links seems potentially unnecessary and potentially contrary to the English Wikipedia guideline on foreign language external links:
Articles are requested to heed this guideline, so are all these Spanish links "official" or critical enough? --Ds13 03:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes let us rid ourselves of the language of the nations in question, except of course those who favorably describe Guevara..... Ay Vey! Although Guevara's English was said to be good [20],, as far as I know he never wrote in this language... xe xe Such is the nonsense of Wikipedia El Jigue 9-22-06
Interesting suggestion " Spanish links we do include should be the most official and critical about the subject." I interpret that to mean that only Castro government data would be allowed. Go ahead that only helps support my thesis that Wikipedia Cuban pages have fallen into the hands of Castro government supporters, El Jigue 9-23-06
I'll also point to "such as" in the quoted passage from the Manual of Style. These examples are intended to be illustrative, not exhaustive. In any event, this is a much fought-over issue in the Manual of Style, and, from experience, there is not a strong consensus on this. I'd be very hesitant to remove any link just on the basis of what language it is in unless the equivalent is available in English, in which case the English version certainly wins. - Jmabel | Talk 19:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I agree that the Spanish Wikipedia is not relevant to the case. From my experience, their standards are simply lower. I'm involved in a lot of translation, and a typical Spanish-language Featured Article wouldn't even meet our Good Article criteria. - Jmabel | Talk 19:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Che Guevara's self promotion causes problems in a "factual" article
Guevara's constant self promotion and denigration of rival associates or victims of his executions causes problems in evaluation of his effect on history. For instance in Santa Clara, in "La ofensiva," in the Congo etc, his role is self-enhanced. Details such as when he left his men in the open on the banks of la Magadalena River (Cuban river not Colombian) when facing the well trained troops of Sanchez Mosqueda, or when he came too late to support Daniel in la ofensiva and Daniel died. Or after Ubero.when he riding a mule he belittles the urban guerrillas of Frank Pais, because these urban fighters could not move fast enough to please him in the mountains. We often find that the most cited articles are those that were written by Guevara, and thus resulting product of this biased information gives a "untrue" version of events. One of the matters that is so sadly amusing is the common criticism of the Bolivian Rangers for executing him, while ignoring the many times before when he executed his perceived enemies or rivals. El Jigue 9-26-06
whoops! forgot to sign. aahhhh, the powerful tilde. Goatboy95 20:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Canderra you have overlooked the Arab/Moorish Chronicles from Spain. And of course the common prayer which went more or less: "From the fury of the Vikings save us our lord." Then have you read the Viking Saga's as pertains to the new world, even the Viking women were killing each other. El Jigue 9-29-06
C: Ay vey then the Vikings were not warlike in your view and I fail to follow your argument re-Vikings. The Viking when raiding tended to kill everybody they could catch and were not worth ransom, including all classes and often in gruesome ways. The independence of Viking women is surely not proven by their murderous deeds, for such have been occurred in subservient women since at least the time of Clytemnestra (nice carpet you have there let us roll it up eh what!!). And don't bring up Geordie speaking, manglewurzle eaters, since King Canute the Dane (1017 - 1035) was well on his way to civilization, that is if such ever existed in Yorkshire. xe xe El Jigue 9-30-06
Your arguments are also flawed in the sense that the Che, who was in my view a rather a dull ideologue and not too brave a tactician, was not all powerful and there are plenty of people who chronicle his misdeeds. What is needed is a balanced presentation of both sides. El Jigue 9-30-06
C: Those scholarly sources were not in the neigborhood. I was. Besides the bias of many of those sources is legendary. El Jigue 10-02-06
Sorry to nitpick but why is living "rough" in quotations? May I remove it without offending anyone? grendelsmother 03:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
* * * * *
Is repetition really necessary?
Someone has recently made modifications to the Criticism section as a result of which its prose is now even more turgid than it had been before. Please note the sentences I have marked in bold in the following paragraph: The second bolded sentence is a virtual repetition of the first! I am putting this text here to give the person who created it, or some other editor, the opportunity to revise it. Please do so expeditiously, because writing of such poor quality cannot be allowed to linger long in a Featured Article. --Polaris999 03:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the criticism section is a bit of a mess, Polaris. Much work to be done by all to restore it to some level of credibility. These sections tend to get very shabby very quickly and are almost impossible to maintain. But I recommend an effort to identify the three or four key recurring criticisms of Guevara, and then attempt to write them using the standard of sourcing the rest of the article has reached. In my mind these key points are;
- failed or dubious military strategies
- failed economic policies
- Obstinate, narrow dogmatic world view
- brutality of methods both pre and post revolution--Zleitzen 03:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
"Eulogy"
The page carries the below (unsourced) paragraph in the legacy section.
To me it reads like original research - and quite frankly a eulogy rather than an accurate encyclopedia entry. Would anyone object if I removed it? --Zleitzen 03:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I think in Che Guevara's euology it should be pointed out that many were glad at his military incompetence and his arrogance which lead, through myriad miliatry blunders (he even got the language wrong in Bolivia), to the death of many vicious terrorists and himself. Still that does not bring back the rebel friend of mine who was killed. El Jigue 10-3-06
Guevara and his men went to Bolivia to kill to suppress all who opposed them, and establish a dogmatic marxist regime. I regret the deaths of those they killed, perhaps 150 by some counts. I feel some sorrow for Tania, as she was betrayed by her own for their own partisan purposes. Yet she was as ruthless as any other of that group. Guevara's partisans, never showed that kind of regret, and it never crossed the mind of Guevara to show mercy when dealing with those who he considered enemies or rivals. One reflects on the irony of it all, that we are expected to feel regret for the death of someone who thought of mortal hate as a virtue and is never reported to have shown mercy when he had the opportunity to kill. El Jigue 10-5-06
Humberto Fontanova quotes Guevara today ""If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City," Che Guevara confided to the London Daily Worker in November 1962. "We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims. ... We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm."" [21]. El Jigue 10-5-06
I've had a tinker around in the legacy section - and attempted to covey 172's writings by quoting sourced material such as the immediate report by Latin American advisors. User:Dasondas has actually expanded the discusion of the U.S. State Department report citing the specific date and providing fuller quotes. I would argue that this isn't necessary - that we just need to get a general flavour of the comments - and we can reduce it to a few lines again. Any thoughts?--Zleitzen 04:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the new version, with the additions located in bold
The differences are adding the date of the report, adding "as a model revolutionary", and the mention of communists as well as leftists. The point that Hughes makes about discouraging Cuban style guerrilla warfare was perhaps questionable as it continued immediately throughout Latin America and Africa. We'll never know if groups were discouraged by Guevara's death, but we certainly know that leftists of all stripes eulogized Guevara - which was the key point of the paragraph. I'm not sure if these changes are necessary on what is already a large article, or that they radically alter the POV, but that's just my opinion.--Zleitzen 13:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
As to "Cuban style guerrilla" warfare, Guevara never did apply that for he never found, let alone developed, the multi-class, multi-ideological, infrastructure that existed in Cuba during the war against Batista. In Cuba he parasitized such infrastructure, and often he killed those he should have considered allies, to try to purge it of all who thought differently from him. In Bolivia, as in Africa, he never knew how to cooperate, not even with the Bolivian communist party. Of course you cannot cite this because this is from my personal experience and observations; and such is not allowed in Wikipedia. So you are just going to have to wait until my book comes out xe xe El Jigue. 10-11-06
P: Thank you. I can see it now, at the edge of the dying fire the wolves of the academe gathered in a circle, their eyes wide, their tongues dripping toxic saliva in anticipation of the joys of rending their prey. Still as long as you pay for it xe xe. While you are waiting to make me rich (or infamous, despised and poverty stricken) by buying or not buying my book (:>), you can find a wide variety of opinions at the discussion section of "Aleida Guevara vs Gen. Gary Prado" at [22]. Of course nobody gets rich selling an academic book but still I can dream. El Jigue 10-11-06
One of the most compelling comes from the words of Raul Castro himself as he describes the take over of El Segundo Frente from the escopeteros in Castro, Raúl 1969 Diario de Campaña. Travesía de la Sierra Maestra al Segundo Frente "Frank País" In: La Sierra y el Llano. Casas de las Américas Havana pp. 201-257. Then there are los Muchachos de Lara, Anonymous 2005 Organización de las Luchas Armadas Revolucionarias. El Crisol July 18 2005 recovered from cache. These links are no longer functional [23] [24] this one is brief, but seems to still work [25] then there is Lara and teniente Mathius (traidor) (accessed 10/12/2006)This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.baibrama.cult.cu/municipios/calixto/efem12.htm as retrieved on Jul 15, 2005 02:38:36 GMT. Apparently something went "wrong" and Orlando Lara went into disfavor. There is even mention of escopeteros being wiped out in the narrations of Massetti senior. This may well be the reference, but I have not rechecked it Masetti, Jorge Ricardo 2005 Los que luchan y los que lloran Publicado digitalmente: 8 de junio de 2005 [http://rodolfowalsh.free.fr/article.php3?id_article=0839[ It would seem that many escopeteros, such as the Brothers Beaton, also fought in the different risings which are often lumped into "La Guerra Contra los Bandidos" and thus have been erased from official histories. By the way Corzo, Pedro 2006 Ernesto Guevara, alias "Che, "LiberPress. Buenos Aires- 8 de octubre de 2006. liberpress@gmail.com has a number of very critical things to say about the Che. You should be able to find that with a google search El Jigue 10-12-06
Article needs some formatting
The article needs some reworking. Since it was featured, it has lost its shape and may need a featured article review. Some of my concerns (some are more serious than others, in no particular order):
- A lot of style problems (mdashes don't need to have spaces around it, dots and commas should go before closing the quotes, date inconsistences, sometimes dd mm yyyy, sometimes mm dd, yyyy, etc).
- There is a red link about foco. [please see reply below]
- There are embedded "hidden" external links that should not be there (in example, El Cristo de Vallegrande at the Capture and execution section, Cuban banknotes at the Cuba section). [please see reply below]
- Some references should be converted to inline references (the Criticism section has 7 references that should be inlined, in example). [agreed, and this is being addressed; please see comment below]
- The Websites section is not necessary. Please link to the exact article used as reference, linking to the home page of a site is not really helpful.
- The Guevara's published works section should use {{cite book}} and {{cite web}}.
- There is at least one unreferenced statement: and the whole Cauto Plains campaign that followed probably had more military significance. [agreed, and this has now been addressed]
That was a quick review, hopefully someone will be able to fix it, as I am currently too busy outside Wikipedia to help. -- ReyBrujo 03:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Polaris that thing on Guisa was referenced to hard copy often to the detailed account in:
Bonachea, Ramon L and Marta San Martin 1974. The Cuban insurrection 1952-1959. Transaction Publishers, New Brunswik, New Jersey ISBN 0-87855-576-5
Castro, Fidel 1972 (editors Bonachea, Rolando E. and Nelson P. Valdéz) Revolutionary Struggle. 1947-1958. MIT Press Cambridge, Massachusetts and London ISBN 0-262-02065-3
Other useful references to this period are:
Chapelle, Dickey 1962 How Castro Won. In: Modern Guerrilla Warfare Fighting Communist Guerrilla Movements (Franklin Mark Osanka editor). Free Press of Glencoe (Macmillan) NY. pp. 325-335. Dickie took a photograph of Lieutenant Cipriano (almost certainly Cipriano Beaton firing at Maffo).
Matos, Huber, 2002. Como llego la Noche. Tusquet Editores, SA, Barcelona. ISBN 84-8310-944-1
Puebla, Teté (Brigadier General Cuban Armed Forces) 2003 Marianas in Combat: and the Mariana Grajales Women's Platoon in Cuba's Revolutionary War 1956-58, New York Pathfinder ISBN 0-87348-957-8
These had hardcopy references somehow (:>) became "delinked" Most references on Guisa are from big wigs who like Castro were hiding first behind the concrete walls of Mon Corona's Hacienda miles from the fighting, and then then went to even more inaccessible Cuevas de Santa Barbara, buried in eastern wall of the lower canyon of the Guisa River. The fighting officials were sidelined Victor Mora died poor but free in Miami, Orlando Rodriguez Puerto was charged with Castro's body guard and Universo Sanchez who as far as I know was distant from the fighting most if not all the time, and of course Braulio Cureneau was killed in the fighting. Some were killed as the fighting continued, Huber Matos of course was imprisoned......El Jigue 10-14-06.
Actions at Guisa
Actions at Guisa are described in Castro, Fidel 1972 (editors Bonachea, Rolando E. and Nelson P. Valdéz) Revolutionary Struggle. 1947-1958. MIT Press Cambridge, Massachusetts and London ISBN 0-262-02065-3 pp. 439-442. Here T-17 heavy armored cars are described as tanks...BTW The Sierra Maestra is in Cuba, La Sierra Madre "nice pair of boots you have there" is in Mexico. El Jigue 10-15-06
P: One of the problems of descriptions of relatively recent Cuban history is the false coherence of "official histories," and the fragmentation of data and lack of access to archives of "non-official" participants. For instance it is a false conceit that the war against Batista was minor, since non-communist rebel contributions are minimized in official Cuban government sources. Thus the Cuban government is forced to attribute full authorship of events to Che Guevara while this is nowhere near the truth. The contributions of even major actors like Sotus, Matos, Lara, Vega, "Daniel," Frank Pais, and the Mora brothers are minimized or omitted, minor actors in exile or with low status in Cuba are ignored. In later events the contributions of such as Father John McKniff who was stunned by El Coubre explosion while providing first aid are completely ignored, and the Che who was not on the ship is given implied credit. "Ignored data is fragmentary or not commonly accessed, For example [36]; Ball, Ann 2001 Rogelio "Francisco" Gonzalez Corzo 1932 - 1961 Cuba. In : Faces of Holiness II: Modern Saints in Photos and Words Our Sunday Visitor Publishing. Division, Huntington, Indiana ISBN 0879734094 pp. 222-229. [37]. Data in material published in Cuba for the main part ignores even the "loyal" dead with rare exceptions e.g. Castillo Bueno, Reyita: The Life of a Black Cuban Woman in the Twentieth Century, as told to her daughter Daisy Rubiera Castillo, translated by Anne Mclean, (Durham: Duke University Press; London: Latin American Bureau, 2000) where there is only a note that Rayita's son is killed no context is given. The losses among the Abakuá dockworkers, can merely be inferred given that that most of the dockworkers were by long tradition members of that secret society, for so far I have not found available sources for names of the dead. Such lists, other details, access to witnesses, etc. are usually only provided to writers with a clear record of supporting the Cuban government and who can be relied upon not to criticize that government; e.g. Bertuccioli, Marie-Dominique 2004 (accessed 9-27-06) La Coubre : un bateau français victime du terrorisme contre contre Cuba [38]. El Jigue 10-16-06
D: none of us are perfect, that is why there is need of proof readers. Still as you know I am not happy with Wikipedia procedures, since my loyalty is to what I perceive and can test as approximations of truth. Thus such errors are merely pointed out with a minimum of academic sarcasm. etc Xe xe Nobody noticed my mispelling of the name of the brave fighter commonly known as Braulio Coroneaux, the correct spelling of his name (I am told) also is incorrect according to payroll information. El Jigue 10-16-06
Borba journal
I have some notes I've found, they are concerned with a piece in the Communist Yugoslav journal Borba. Borba's reporters had vistied Cuba in 1966 planting the failure of Cuba to industrialize its agricultural economy within five years firmly at Guevara's feet, noting "the many half-completed or empty factories". This would be a really good source for the legacy/criticism section in dealing with Guevara's economic failings - and would neutralise any dissent from leftists due to the source itself. But I can't for the life of me remember where I got it from. Does anyone know what I'm talking about here or could anyone assist?--Zleitzen 20:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Cultural depictions of Che Guevara
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 18:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Time Magazine
As we now have a far more vivid description of the 1959 trial process sourced to José Vilasuso, where it is patently clear that the trials were summary, is the Time magazine sentence "The trials he conducted were "unfair", in the opinion of Ariel Dorfman" essential to the article? Ariel Dorfman?--Zleitzen 01:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the additions are a real improvement. In regard to working on the criticism/legacy sections, such pieces are rather like doing open heart surgery in a hurricane, and not a task to relish!--Zleitzen 10:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Creating a red link
Hello all -- Someone has just "wikified" the name of CG's father in the "Family Heritage and Early Life" section. Since there is no WP article about him, this creates a red link. Does anyone see any justification for this, or should it be undone? -- Polaris999 17:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Critics Section
Hello,
It begins with this : Though he has been labeled by some as a hero, opponents of Guevara, including most of the Cuban exile community as well as refugees from other countries under communism, view him as a killer and terrorist.
That's funny no ? I quote Including most of the Cuban exile community its a joke or what ? This community, in New Jersey and Florida, are true terrorist, you need some name perhaps ? (Posada Carriles, Orlando Bosch for the most popular) some facts (October 1976, flight's explosion of Cubana Airlines, 73 killings) It's so amazing to read critics about torture when nobody say anything about the regime of Batista, and somebodys spoke about propaganda ? Let me laugh ;)
Bye and thank you for your attention.
.TSM.
TSM If those remarks of yours, which smear a whole ethnic group for alleged but not proven crimes of a few individuals are allowed to influence this section, this as close to a condemnation of this entire Wikipedia page as I have ever seen. For crying out loud, this is the "criticism section". Heck why the Che killed far more than Posada is ever said to have done. El Jigue 10-26-06
Legacy rewrite
OK. I've completed a new draft of the Legacy section. What I've tried to do is combine the legacy and criticisms sections, as discussed above. When comparing writing such sections with performing surgery in a hurricane as I have above, I should have added that it is rather like performing "Frankenstein" surgery - using bits of body parts, snatches of sources, quotes and used material etc! So I apologise if the reading is slightly disjointed and that could be something to work on. Also, on re-reading the tone it may seem overly cynical to some, perhaps betraying my own POV. A few thoughts on my own rewrite.
- My latest version is 933 words long to the previous version's 975 words.
- There are two unsourced pieces, 1. Referring to Cuban policy after CG's death which I'll stand by even though I don't have a direct source. I've tried to summarise of a number of years' history - which is difficult but can be confirmed if necessary. 2. The tourist figures at Santa Clara, which were carried over from the page version, but I couldn't find a source for.
- I've added a legacy in Cuba section, though Che is very much seen as an international figure, I believe his impact on Cubans both as a hero or a villain deserves some airing and respect.
- Apologies to Dasondas for taking a knife to that State department piece again, it's simply a result of a desperate need to cram as much as possible into as few words.
Any thoughts are welcome. And, of course, improvements to this draft are not just expected, but demanded!--Zleitzen 00:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Opinions requested
Hello everybody -- I have some concerns about the following sentence in the lead paragraph of the CG article and would like to know if they are shared by others. Here is the sentence under discussion:
In order of importance, my concerns are: (i) I am not sure that what Arbenz did/was doing in Guatemala qualifies as a "social revolution"; (ii) I question whether it is accurate to state that CG was "involved in Guatemala's social revolution" (or whatever else it might be called) since, to the best of my knowledge, he was more of an onlooker than a participant; (iii) I don't think that the phrase "the region's economic inequality" is the optimal choice as it does not make it clear whether the inequality in question was among people within the region (i.e., a markedly skewed distribution of income) or an inequality in GDP between "the region" and some other unspecified region.
I would appreciate hearing from other editors whether they consider my concerns to be serious ones that should be addressed or whether they consider that the sentence is fine "as is". Thank you -- Polaris999 05:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Changes proposed to improve readability, Part I
Fellow editors: Please take a look at this comparison page to see the changes that User: Brian H made to the CG article and that I have rolled back pending discussion of them here on the Discussion page and express your opinions as to whether they should be included or not. Many thanks -- Polaris999 02:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
To facilitate further discussion of this topic, I am inserting here a side-by-side comparison of the lead paragraph, before and after. User: Brian H, please notice that the phrase used in the sentence you refer to above that contains the word "rough" is, and always has been, "traveling rough", not "riding rough". I believe that "riding rough" is what Theodore Roosevelt and his cohorts did. (¿El grouchomarxista eres tú?) -- Polaris999 18:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC) (with apologies to Pablo Milanés)
I think that this is a good opportunity for all of us to try to improve the lead paragraph. I am especially bothered by the third sentence and wonder whether the following would be an improvement:
-- Polaris999 18:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
One of the problems with Brian's version is that Guevara made a number of trips - the motorcycle trip being just one. As stated by Polaris, the reasons for the motorcycle trip were not to bring himself into direct contact with the impoverished conditions - but simply to travel and experience the continent. Also, the phrase "He later cited these experiences as what convinced him that..." is grammatically incorrect. All in all I support the first shorter, more accurate version. Polaris is wise to note that a mention of "Rough Riders" on an article concerning Cuba could be misleading!--Zleitzen 18:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Well they are each an improvement. I would tend to agree with Dasondas that his first sentence is even more neutral. Here's my attempt for what it's worth! "His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to study Marxism and travel to Guatemala to study the reforms being implemented by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán."--Zleitzen 20:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Changes proposed to improve readability, Part II
(removing indent) I tend to agree with BrianH and think that something along the lines of "travelled through Latin America by motorcycle" would be both more factual and less stylistically distracting. Any other thoughts? Dasondas 02:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Powerless masses
Rising up and throwing off the shackles of the consensual dialectic, inspired by WP:BOLD and influenced by more than one scotch, I have published my edits to this most oppobrious of paragraphs. You may revert or edit at will (go ahead, you coward, you will only be killing a paragraph). Those with imperialist administrative powers may even ban me for vandalism (don't think you wouldn't be doing me a favor). Dasondas 06:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
No way, Guevara's perception of social conditions in Latin America were inevitable influenced by his marxist upbringing. His very reliance on such theoretical concepts so flawed his view of reality that they led to his, in my view very deserved, doom in Bolivia. El Jigue 11-5-06
Changes proposed by Lavenderbunny
If interested, please take a look at this comparison page to view the changes made on 06 November 06 by User:Lavenderbunny and which I rolled back pending discussion here. -- Polaris999 17:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Citation for political dissidents
I need to take a further look at that sentence and citation in reference to "political dissidents". Having written about the post revolution "against the wall" period elsewhere - I need more convincing. The fact that the citation is from the "Black book of communism" raises questions, considering that the immediate post revolution period we are concerned with was not marked by "communist" governance or methods, it seems strange that it should be presented in that book and contradictory to historical accounts of the period. I don't know the book in question I'm afraid. By the way - I'm thinking of the 500 or so executions in the first 6 months or so of 1959. I'll revisit various historical texts to ascertain which executions we are referring to. "Political dissidents" is not something I would necessarily associate with the victims from my previous studies. It may have also been the reason why Polaris added the "citation needed" tag.--Zleitzen 23:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's a few accounts to add to the pot.
- Richard Gott, in Cuba : A new history states "several hundred former Batista associates, policemen and torturers were shot by firing squad after perfunctory trials". p168
- Hugh Thomas, in Cuba the pursuit of freedom, states that 200 people were shot after the tribunals, all for murder or torture. Thomas goes on to say, "many of those shot richly deserved it, by most criteria" p726
- Angelo Trento, in Castro and Cuba says that there were approx. 400 capital sentences for "people who had collaborated with Batista's repressive regime"
- Jon Lee Anderson states the executions were of "deputies, rank and file chivatos and police torturers" p388
It would be good to have a strong selection of sources to cover this most controversial section of the page.--Zleitzen 14:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
El Jigue
I've brought this up, on the 'talk pages' of Cuba, Fidel Castro and Raul Castro. Though El Jigue, may be a popular (or at least engaging) anon-user, his continuous gossiping on article-related events, are clogging up space. This gossiping should stop, an irresponsible popular anon-user (El Jigue); is still an irresponsible anon user. This gossiping is against Wikipedia policy; hey, I didn't set the policies. GoodDay 01:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
In all probability these numbers are low even for the first six months. Personally I remember the horror of fellow rebels (most front-line rebels disliked executions) when report came in of 100 killed by Raul in a single day in Santiago. However, perhaps the major point is that these executions did not stop after the early months and accelerated as time went on and the resistance known as the "War Against the Bandits" came, grew strong, and was repressed (circa 1967). Total executions in Cuba are usually given as in excess of 10,000, a round and thus imprecise number.
Beruvides, Esteban M 1992 Cuba y sus Mártires. Cuban Historical Association, Miami Library of Congreso number 92072567 lists by name and when possible date of death well over 4,000. "Accidental" shooting deaths were so common in those early days that there were editorials in newspapers still not under governmen control (e.g. Prensa Libre) protesting their occurrence. An very readable account of some of the horror of those days is given in: Plimpton, George 1977 Shadow box. G.P. Putnam's Sons. New York. SBN 399119957 especially pp. 143-149. The relationship of Mark Herman to the Che Guevara is not clear to me but I am under the impression that he was under the direct orders of Guevara. El Jigue 11-8-06
"Che" derived from the Mapuche?
A correspondent tells me that: "Che, is a colloquial address in Argentina and Paraguay, with roots in the Mapuche indigenous word Che, meaning people. Calling someone Che implies the belonging to one's own people (as paisano is used in Cuban vernacular)." It is a common given among the less educated in Argentina that they are "Europeans" however even the most cursory examination of features of rural and some urban populations demonstrates that they carry indigenous traits. This custom may date from the times of the genocidal tyrant Rosas, when to admit that one was indigenous was not the safest thing in the world. El Jigue 11-8-06
Anon edits
An anon editor restored much material that was subsequently rejected or improved, the material uses repetition from earlier sections, was poorly written, carried unreliable sources, gave undue weight to weak or obscure theories, was rejected by consensus, was in effect a POV fork and ultimately diminished the credibility of a featured article. One of the most contentious aspects of editing is when one removes so called "criticisms". My reply to that is always the same - write the criticisms in a serious manner that one would expect to read in an encyclopedia, write them from varied, academic or serious sources, and don't create huge chunks of material that even to the most neutral observer would read like an amateur hack job. It would seem that we had overcome that problem with this article, it would be a shame of the credibility was reduced again.--Zleitzen 17:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that anon is accusing me (although it was in collaboration with a number of editors) of deleting the criticism section (the accusation is at the top of the page for some reason). He/she has failed to notice that the criticism section was in fact merged with the legacy section - and new criticisms were introduced (by me) from more reliable sources. Therefore his/her edits were merely repeating points that were already in the article. It always helps to read an article before one attempts vast edits. In light of this error, I believe the editor is misplaced in adding the POV tag and it should be removed.--Zleitzen 17:58, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The criticism section disapeared completly on October 27th by your edit, it appears. The criticism section was torn down over the course of several months via baseless accusations which amount for "love of che" and hatred of anything that does not agree with you. The POV tag should stay because this article, while at many points provides factual accounts, also has moments of Che loving that is not encyclopedic in and of itself. But because this is a controversial topic, with viewers, readers, and scholars on opposite sides, it is most appropriate to have both pro and cons to Che's history. NOT ONE SIDED VIEWS. --Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk o contribs)
Well a criticism of Che section is woefully missing. Perhaps one should be built. Try being constructive rather than destructive (ie, deleting), which looks like the only thing you are capable of doing, as of now. (Signed anon editor) --Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.120.46.164 (talk o contribs)
Criticism sections are very common in wikipedia, primarily to allow folks to slander public figures they dislike... but they are rarely encyclopedic. Get Over It! Wikipedia doesn't exist to reflect the general views of the American majority. Palenque 03:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
POV
I am disputing the nuetrality of this page because editors have deleted cited material criticising Che and have not replaced it with anything. The "talk", so called, called for a re-write of the legacy and criticism but nothing of the sort was done. Z, has ONLY deleted the criticism section. I have restored it. --Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk o contribs)
Criticism rewrite 1
(Critics of the criticism page do not have a legit point on credibility of sources. You may dispute with sources, but deletion of cited material, as has been done on this page, constitutes a violation of NPOV rules)--Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk o contribs)
Though he has been labeled by some as a hero, opponents of Guevara, including most of the Cuban exile community and some refugees from other countries under communism, view him as a killer and terrorist. They claim that he ordered the execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons and peasants against the Cuban Revolution in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. New York Sun writer, Williams Myers, labels Che as a "sociopathic thug". Other US newspaper critics have made similar remarks. These critics believe that Che Guevara was personally responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. They also believe that Guevara was a "blundering tactician" with no combat victories, not a revolutionary genius. They dispute accounts of the Battle of Santa Clara; on the capturing of a train supplying heavy reinforcements, critic Álvaro Vargas Llosa writes, "Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes."
Critics believe Guevara founded Cuba's forced labor camp system, establishing its first forced labor camp in Guanahacabibes to re-educate managers of state-owned enterprises who were guilty of various violations of "revolutionary ethics". Many years after Guevara's death, Cuba's labor camp system was used to jail dissidents of the Revolution. Critics also believe Che executed more than just political figures, but also political dissidents.
Some claim Guevara was a failure at managing the Cuban economy, as he "oversaw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing--all this in what had been one of Latin America's four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship." There is also the belief by some critics that, because there is no documentary evidence of Guevara having earned a medical degree, he was not actually a doctor.
In "The Cult of Che", writer Paul Berman critiques the film The Motorcycle Diaries and argues "that modern-day cult of Che" obscures the "tremendous social struggle" currently taking place in Cuba. For example, the article discusses the jailing of dissidents, such as poet and journalist Raúl Rivero, who was eventually freed after worldwide pressure due to a campaign of solidarity by the International Committee for Democracy in Cuba which included Václav Havel, Lech Wa??sa, Árpád Göncz, Elena Bonner and others. Berman claims that in the U.S., where Motorcycle Diaries received standing ovations at the Sundance film festival, the adoration of Che has caused Americans to overlook the plight of dissident Cubans. This glorification of Che is also satirized by online site che-mart.com, which, among other things, markets T-shirts poking fun at both Guevara and his supporters, casting aspersions on what they perceive as an irony: Che Guevara as one of capitalism's hottest-selling images.
Although much criticism of Guevara and his legacy emanates from the political center and right, there has also been criticism from other political groups such as anarchists and civil libertarians, some of whom consider Guevara an authoritarian, anti-working-class Stalinist, whose goal was the creation of a more bureaucratic state-Stalinist regime.
--Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk o contribs)
Criticism section
Criticism of Che Guevara
Though he has been labeled by some as a hero, opponents of Guevara, including most of the Cuban exile community and some refugees from other countries under communism, view him as a killer and terrorist. They claim that he ordered the execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons and peasants against the Cuban Revolution in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. New York Sun writer, Williams Myers, labels Che as a "sociopathic thug". Other US newspaper critics have made similar remarks. These critics point out that Che Guevara was personally responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces. They also believe that Guevara was a "blundering tactician", not a revolutionary genius, who has not one recorded combat victory. Guevara founded Cuba's forced labor camp system, establishing its first forced labor camp in Guanahacabibes to re-educate managers of state-owned enterprises who were guilty of various violations of "revolutionary ethics". Many years after Guevara's death, Cuba's labor camp system was used to jail dissidents of the Revolution. Critics believe Guevara was ineffective and in reality a poor tactician. They dispute accounts of the Battle of Santa Clara; on the capturing of a train supplying heavy reinforcements, critic Álvaro Vargas Llosa writes, "Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes."
Some claim Guevara was a failure at managing the Cuban economy, as he "oversaw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing--all this in what had been one of Latin America's four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship." There is also the belief by some critics that, because there is no documentary evidence of Guevara having earned a medical degree, he was not actually a doctor.
In "The Cult of Che", writer Paul Berman critiques the film The Motorcycle Diaries and argues "that modern-day cult of Che" obscures the "tremendous social struggle" currently taking place in Cuba. For example, the article discusses the jailing of dissidents, such as poet and journalist Raúl Rivero, who was eventually freed after worldwide pressure due to a campaign of solidarity by the International Committee for Democracy in Cuba which included Václav Havel, Lech Wa??sa, Árpád Göncz, Elena Bonner and others. Berman claims that in the U.S., where Motorcycle Diaries received standing ovations at the Sundance film festival, the adoration of Che has caused Americans to overlook the plight of dissident Cubans. This glorification of Che is also satirized by online site che-mart.com, which, among other things, markets T-shirts poking fun at both Guevara and his supporters, casting aspersions on what they perceive as an irony: Che Guevara as one of capitalism's hottest-selling images.
Critics also believe Che executed more than just political figures, but also political dissidents. Although much criticism of Guevara and his legacy emanates from the political center and right, there has also been criticism from other political groups such as anarchists and civil libertarians, some of whom consider Guevara an authoritarian, anti-working-class Stalinist, whose goal was the creation of a more bureaucratic state-Stalinist regime. --Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk o contribs)
Just because you don't like the sources or do not like what the sources say does not mean you can delete it. This is called bias, it is also a violation of the rules on NPOV --Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk o contribs)
Propagandists have been systematically removing criticism of Che from this page. Not surprisingly, these are the same editors removing cited criticism from other "celebrated" communist pages. You all do not have the power to decide what is right and wrong, this leads to a one sided biased account.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.15.112.129 (talk o contribs) .
To reiterate: The New York Sun is barely journalism, much less a credible source on historical figures. I could find alot of people who don't like Che, but does say, your uncle's opinion belong here? Well the answer is no, just becasue some nobody has expressed an opinon, it does NOT mean we have to include it in an encyclopedia. If you want to get your shots in on Che, or anyone else for that matter, start a blog. This isn't the place for quoting ad hominem attacks. Palenque 03:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages
Please sign posts. This is a very active talk page and editors find it much easier to reply if they know who made posts. Having to search the edit history is time consuming and sometimes it is difficult to find who posted what .Thanks.--Dakota 20:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Kinda difficult to sign if your anon don't you think? (Anon)--Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.120.46.164 (talk o contribs)
Concerning "criticism" sections
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:What_is_a_featured_article%3F#Criticism_sections -- Polaris999 20:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
This obviously has not been done here on this page (Anon) --Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.120.46.164 (talk o contribs)
Wikipedia guideline re editing "Featured Articles"
"New users in particular are often entranced by the openness of Wikipedia and dive right in. That's a good thing. But please note: 'be bold in updating pages' does not mean that you should make large changes or deletions to long articles on complex, controversial subjects with long histories, such as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or abortion, without carefully looking at your edit. In addition, making large-scale changes to Featured articles, which are recognized as Wikipedia's best articles for their completeness, accuracy, and neutrality, is often a bad idea. In many such cases the text as you find it has come into being after long and arduous negotiations between Wikipedians of diverse backgrounds and points of view. An incautious edit to such an article can be likened to stirring up a hornet's nest, and other users who are involved in the page may react angrily.
"If you would like to edit an article on a controversial subject, it's a useful idea to first read the article in its entirety, read the comments on the talk page, and view the page history to get a sense of how the article came into being and what its current status is. It's also worth reading around some related articles, as what you thought was a problem or omission may vanish after you have followed a few links.
"If you expect or see a disagreement with your version of the article, and you want to change or delete anything substantial in the text, it's a good idea to list your objections one by one in the talk page, reasonably quoting the disputed phrases, explaining your reasoning and providing solid references... If there is a WikiProject associated with the page, you might also want to mention your proposed changes there if they are substantial.
"Then, wait for responses for at least a day: people edit Wikipedia in their spare time and may not respond immediately. If no one objects, proceed, but always move large deletions to the Talk page and list your objections to the text so that other people will understand your changes and will be able to follow the history of the page. Also be sure to leave a descriptive edit summary detailing your change and reasoning."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold_in_updating_pages#...but_don.27t_be_reckless.21
-- Polaris999 20:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, here's a point-by-point breakdown on this piece. 1) The opening paragraph which speaks about the "criticism section" itself doesn't belong in an encyclopedic entry. I don't understand the need for a "warning to what is to follow" in an entry like this.
2) "Critics believe that Che Guevara was personally responsible for the torture and execution of hundreds of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces."
This isn't a matter of "critics believing." The fact that Guevara was responsible for many deaths is widely known - it's almost like saying "Some believe Henry Ford founded the Ford Motor Company." That said, I don't know that we should be getting into numbers here. Numerous others have attempted to attach an exact number to the amount of executions, murders, what have you, of the Castro regime. Seems very difficult to get an actual number for this.
3) The fact that the Cuban economy collapsed under Guevara's stewardship is also well known and not an opinion as is suggested.
4) The entry also seems to tacitly suggest that it is really only the Cuban-American community that see Guevara as a "criminal." I'm not sure this sentence is really appropriate. It would be better simply to say that Guevara is a polarizing figure - something along those lines.
Hope this helps.
Goatboy95 23:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this part of the removed/revised section;
Critics dispute accounts of the Battle of Santa Clara, which according to supporters of Che, was his largest military victory by capturing a train supplying heavy reinforcements. Critic Álvaro Vargas Llosa writes, "Numerous testimonies indicate that the commander of the train surrendered in advance, perhaps after taking bribes
The problem with this paragraph (other than the fact that it doesn't read correctly) is that I have not read any testimonies to say that the capture of the train was anything more than what is described above, nor does our article suggest anything to the contrary. Soldiers sought refuge in a train, but by that time morale among soldiers was so low that a truce had been sought, the soldiers saying that "they were tired of fighting against their own people" according to one historical account. I would be interested to read sources from supporters of Guevara which point to that incident as evidence of Guevara's heroism. It would seem to be a straw man creation of little value, though the incident could helpfully be explored in the article or elsewhere. --Zleitzen 09:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
-So where are the points detailing accusations of murder by Che? People do in fact claim that Che not only personally ordered executions of non political and military persons but that he personally ordered or carried out the torture of noncombatants. -where is evidence that Che may have seized private property, and rather than use it for communist purposes, used it for his own personal pleasure? -Where is the fact of his failure to run the economy. -Why is there no other mention of his military record when the critics suggest he has no combat victories. -Why is there no other mentioning that no record of him completing medical school exists?
All of the criticism COULD be put in the main body, but it has not been placed there. I also doubt that if it was there, it would stay for very long. It seems to me there are people on here who are more adept to criticizing why something should not be present than working with editors to include the material by improving it. (Do it yourself) --Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.15.112.129 (talk o contribs)
The "battle" of Santa Clara
Z: "El Mejicano" Capitan Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo (who has been alleged involved im the JFK assasination [40] [41] something I find hard to believe) has been reported in several sources e.g. [42][43] [44][45] to have declared that the train episode was a result of bribery. The original statement appeared in a Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo (El Diario de Nueva York, June 25th 1959) as yet I have not obtained the original text. Apparently early in the 1960s El Mejicano, who had been sent to kill Rolando Masferrer in Florida, defected instead. This appears not relate to Masferrer's later death. By the way as a number of other communists (e.g. Vittorio Vidale) Masferrer was a stalinist killer during the Spanish Civil War, he was wounded in a foot, and in much literature Masferrer is denoted by his stepfalls. his victims are putatively to heard his irregular steps in their last moments. I wish this "El Mejicano" (there were several" with this nickname in Cuba at the time) would write down his memories. It is my understanding that a movie with the running title of "El Tigre" on Masferrer (a long standing enemy of Castro) is soon to be available [46], [47][48]. El Jigue 12-12-06
Z: There is a first hand narration from Directorio Rebel Santiago de Juan in the book Soldier's Verse [49]. Here Santiago narrates in prose and verse some events of those last days of that war in the middle provinces. El Jigue 11-12-06
Polaris: with the above cites and the Cuban official histories (which must be taken with a very large grin ((:>) pun intended) of salt) the should be quite enough material, although I think the actions at Guisa, Maffo etc had more military importance; or if you may prefer the title "plains campaigns" at the end of 1958. El Jigue 11-12-06
Should this cover the earlier campaigns of the Muchachos de Lara, Daniel, Camilo Cienfuegos...? El Jigue 11-12-06 :Please stop the blogging, of the 'talk page'. GoodDay 23:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that it would make sense if it covered everything from the time the columns left the Sierra Maestra, culminating in the Battles of Santa Clara and Yaguajay. However, I suppose that the scope of such an article would be beyond what a "child" article of this Che Guevara article should cover. But at least we could, I believe, deal with events directly involving CG's column. Perhaps the best idea, to keep the focus firmly on Guevara, would be to entitle the child article "Actions of Che Guevara's Column 8", or some such? Then perhaps a similar article could be written about Camilo's column as a child article of the main article about Camilo? But, in this case, where will the activities of the Muchachos de Lara and Daniel be written about?-- Polaris999 00:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Upper class / middle class
An anon user has amended the sentence -
Growing up in this upper-class family with leftist leanings, Guevara became known for his dynamic personality
to read middle class a couple of times. I would actually side with the anon user. I don't know about other users, but my understanding of the upper-class is the ruling class, aristocracy and so on. A very small elite. Guevara, a doctor by education would not be considered in these terms. Taking a look at the Upper class page I realise that the term has different meanings depending on culture. Does anyone have anymore thoughts on this?--Zleitzen 05:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Another user has taken up the cause of the class issue moving it back to middle class. I've changed it to upper middle class to reflect the above discussion. I had no idea how culturally relative this issue is though. On the upper middle class page, it gives a signifier of upper middle class status as a "vacation in Hawaii" and a "luxury car"! Good lord no!--Zleitzen 14:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Um, Che Guevara was born into a middle class family. This is virtually undisputed by anyone (outside of this place obviously). Of course, you have to have an understanding of class to define Che's. Don't we work on sourced info around here? Even the BBC, a bourgeois media outlet, hardly friendly to communism or Che, says he was middle class. Check out http://www.companeroche.com/index.php?id=92 It contains an article from the BBC that reads: "A former medical student from a very middle class Argentine family, Ernesto "Che" Guevara was an unlikely revolutionary hero." I'm changing it back. Redflagflying 09:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not following the comments by a couple of users above. The point here is to try and write an accurate article as it is anywhere on wikipedia. Having read the analysis of Polaris, who is responsible for editing most of the accurate detail on this featured article, it would seem that to maintain accuracy, middle class would not be a fitting term. For the record here are contradictory sources which define Guevara's upper-class upbringing and thus dispute the indisputable [50] Here's another from the Guardian
"He had this Castilian Spanish upper-class guilt about the working class" [51]
Here's another [52] And another [53] Here is a description of Chichina's "upperclass" family [54] There are many others. Therefore it would seem to be that "upper middle class" was more accurate than middle-class.--Zleitzen 13:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
You people have to be joking me, using sources like "national geographic," one of the most anti-communist media outlets ever. I'm sure they have no motive behind their description of Che as upper class... yeah right. There is a thing called objective fact. The objective facts here are that Che was born into a family of middle class (petty bourgeois) professionals. He wasn't born into a family of the ruling class. His family were not capitalists. Capitalists make up the "upper class". Class is not determined by how much money one has, or what kind of vacations they take (what kind of ridiculous shit is that??), it's determined by one's relation to the means of production. Che's family was not made up of capitalists (upper class), nor was it made up of workers (proletarians), nor was it made up of lumpenproletariat (street criminals), nor was it made up of peasants. It was made up of professionals, middle class, petit-bourgeoisie, petty bourgeoisie. This isn't even something that's up for debate anywhere but here, where common misconceptions win out over fact. Redflagflying 17:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
As noted above, upper-middle class has specific connotations (mainly, it connotes upward mobility from the middle class) that are wrong here. It would be more accurate to say something like "descended on both sides from Argentina's elite, but his own father's lavish spending and poor investments had reduced them to a middle-class standard of living". - Jmabel | Talk - 21:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
La Lynch
Apparently Guevara's second surname Lynch does not related to Paraguay Chaco War dictator Francisco Solano Lopez's famous mistress Elisa Alicia Lynch [55]. It seems her surviving sons took the dictator's last name. However, the name Lynch was originally Irish, as is its application to violence, thus the Elisa and the Che may well have had consanguineous roots. El Jigue 12-1-06
Aureliano [56] let us wait to see if this shows up. It is probably correct that there is potential consanguinuity but not a close relationship. BTW Is there a Wikipedia page on Elisa Alicia Lynch she certainly deserves one. El Jigue 12-02-06
Among Jorge Luis Borges's pseudonyms were B. Lynch Davis and B. Suárez Lynch. He tended to make pseudonyms out of the names of relatives and occasionally friend's relatives. Does anyone know if it is the same Lynch family (I'd guess it is) and what exactly was Borges connection? - Jmabel | Talk
His last words
Actualy I have read that the oficial report says that his last words were "Párese derecho y apunte bien, va usted a matar a un hombre", which translated would mean "Stand straigth and aim right, you are going to kill a man" and not "I know you are here to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man".
Beker 21:00, 2 December 2006
There is a different version far less flattering. He may have been wounded deliberately before in revenge for the cruel execution of William Morgan. However, my recall of such reports could be faulty (:>) El Jigue 12-2-06
Does anyone know of a source for this ... ?
IP 67.189.188.140 has added the words bolded below to the fourth paragraph of the "Congo/Expedition" subsection:
While I have heard reports that a US Army Special Forces detachment was indeed involved, I am not aware of any WP:V source to support this assertion. Therefore, I am obliged to remove those words (the bolded ones) from the article until IP 67.189.188.140 or someone else can provide a verifiable source. -- Polaris999 23:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Polaris, it is my understanding, that Mad Mike and some Cuban exiles did chase Guevara out of the Congo. When I get the time will check my references on this. El Jigue 12-2-06
Supposedly for I have not read it Mike Hoare's 1991 book "Congo Warriors" Robert Hale Ltd (February 28, 1991) ISBN: 0709043694 mentions Cuban exile pilots. The pilots e.g. [57] or "The CIA replaced Tshombe's T6s with new T-28Ds, and recruited additional pilots and ground crew to operate them. The new air campaign required a far larger investment in personnel and equipment than had hitherto been the case. More than twenty Cuban pilots were now flying in the Congo, supported by Cuban ground crews." [58] I knew about I was thinking ground forces. Jigue 12-6-06
Felix Rodriguez in 1989 Shadow Warrior Simon and Schuster New York states he never fought in the Congo. ISBN 0671667211 pp. 261 snd 265. El Jigue 12 6-06
Insurrection in Bolivia Actually Intended Towards Argentina
Recently (2001), a documentary was made entitled Sacrificio: Who Betrayed Che Guevara. In this film Ciro Bustos, Che's number 1 in Bolivia, tells how they were actually planning on an insurrection in Argentina and were using Bolivia as an outpost. Ciro Bustos himself said this in an interview in the doumentary. ~lvleph 13 Dec 2006
Signature
There is no basis to say his act of signing as Che was an act of disdain or irony, in fact the note says that it was not. Chico 19:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Existence of Money
I think sources are needed to say "he was opposed to the existence of money and favored its speedy abolition". Chico 21:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Latin American intellectuals
An editor has added this to the legacy section:
Latin American intellectuals Octavio Paz, Mario Vargas Llosa, Jorge Edwards, Enrique Krauze, Carlos Franqui, Jorge Castañeda and others contributed to demystify the image of Guevara.
This I believe is largely true. However there is no source, and I fear it may be classed as original research, if not now, but in the future. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to proceed. I will ask the editor to contribute.--Zleitzen 02:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Great! Here I post info for another conversion to content note:
The same can be read online. [59]
Now I will try to search in my personal library to find the Letras Libres issue in paper. --Cesar Tort 06:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
It now seems that the December 2006 issue of Letras Libres that I have is not the same that appears in the web [60] (the issue's content of that periodical varies from Mexico to Spain). But it's unnecessary: that article was about Jon Lee Anderson's biography, and it's easy to find a similar paper reference in English (the other sources I posted are in Spanish). --Cesar Tort 07:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
"The most famous photograph..."
Good job Zleitzen! Hitchens is so good as an iconoclast (just see his book about Mother Teresa...)!
Now I am concerned about the photo-icon. What troubles me is that posting that icon at the top of the page is pretty much symptomatic of the continuing incarnation of the Guevara myth. A more prosaic photo ought to appear at the top of the article, and only post "the most famous photo" when the text deals with the icon. In totalitarian countries it was a very common trick to publicize iconic-like photos of the political leaders. If the WP goal is to write a dry encyclopedic article, unidealistic terms and photos should be the rule. --Cesar Tort 08:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
frame|right|Alberto Korda's photograph of Che Guevara
center
Hi Polaris, I've replaced the pics to see if the shoe fits. And will scour the history for the names of those who replaced it before, to be added to the black book of Zleitzen for future reference!--Zleitzen 01:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Please link this video
This is a great 30 minute video on Che that I think people will help get a sense of who Che was.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2825077734855289100&hl=en
I would do this but I am new to wikipedia and I don't want to mess with the site. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.80.232.111 (talk) 06:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC).
Request for help
Hi Everyone,
I know this isn't directly related to the article on Che Guevara, but it is loosely related.
I am one of the main contributors of the article on Eva Peron, and I have based the article in many ways on this article about Che. We are currently having a bit of an edit war over whether images of Time magazine covers with Evita are allowed on the page, as well as whether a (please don't laugh) still of Lisa Simpson in the episode The President Wore Pearls is acceptable.
I note that there are images of Che on covers of magazines, so I was wondering if some editors here could offer some help. I am getting very frustrated, to the point where I almost want to abandon the article due to some of the hostility I'm having to endure. But the Eva Peron article recently made it to Good Article status (largely due to my contributions, though you wouldn't know it for some of the hostility I'm facing), so I don't want to abandon it. There is talk that the article is a good candidate for FA status, though it will obviously need some work to get there.
Any help in any regard would be appreciated.
Thank you.
In Good Faith,
Andrew Parodi 14:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello there,
As a photo news editor, I can tell you with some authority that the use of a magazine cover is perfectly legal and acceptable. You would not be able to use the lone image employed on the magazine's cover without the photographer's permission however, use of the actualy magazine cover is fine.
Cheers,
Goatboy95 18:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Category:People from...
Is there a problem with my deleting Category:People from Santa Fe Province? The specific category Category:People from Rosario is included in it and works alone fine. There are some instances where parent and child categories are OK in an article, but doesn't seem to be the case. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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Source of the article : Wikipedia
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